NICOLE: I have removed “off the record” on gchat which I never had selected in the first place.
MALLORY: I know, I had it selected
I always do
NICOLE: I mean there is no reason not to, except for the purposes of blogging about Civil War.
The young woman who tried to comment a thousand times about Bucky’s hair leads me to open with “we have covered Bucky’s bad hair.”
The hair was bad.
MALLORY: yes
I do also want to point out
that after I tweeted repeatedly about the hair’s badness and went to bed
you texted me
“you dumb fucking bitch you better call me as soon as you get up so I can explain Captain America to you”
NICOLE: I certainly did.
I did do that.
MALLORY: so explain it to me
what have I Missed
NICOLE: But I ALSO said you were right about the hair, for the record.
Here we go.
This is not a case of “a Marvel movie which doesn’t always make sense if you have not seen eleventy Marvel movies.”
This is a NAMED TRILOGY.
CAP ONE
CAP TWO
CAP THREE
MALLORY: I DON’T LIKE CALLING HIM CAP
NICOLE: (You are also correct that Cap is a bad nickname.)
lol
MALLORY: okay thank you
so this is not an Avengers movie
NICOLE: No.
MALLORY: even though a lot of Avengers were in it
this was a specifically Captain America movie
NICOLE: It is a Captain America movie.
MALLORY: okay, that makes sense!
NICOLE: Which is why it was called “Captain America: Civil War” and not “The Avengers: Civil War.”
MALLORY: guess I should have seen Winter Soldier
NICOLE: Yes.
MALLORY: I mean
that’s a lot of nomenclature to have to learn
NICOLE: Bc of the EMOTIONAL DEVELOPMENT of the character.
MALLORY: ok so apparently Lord Buckington and Steve had so much chemistry in the second movie that they ran out of it in this one
is that right?
NICOLE: Like as I said to you on the phone, this is like wandering into LOTR: Return of the King and saying “It seems weird that Sam would climb up this shitty mountain to help out this whiny sweaty guy bugging out about this ring.”
Yes. They had too much chemistry, and the studio decided to give them less chemistry.
MALLORY: hang on though
LOTR was specifically adapted as a trilogy
and was always intended to belong together
this is just a series of related comic book movies, it’s not a numbered trilogy
NICOLE: No.
This is untrue.
MALLORY: WHERE’S THE NUMBER, NICOLE
THE NUMBER TELLS ME I HAVE TO WATCH TWO OTHER MOVIES
POINT OUT
THE NUMBER
THREE
IN THE TITLE
NICOLE: These are DIRECTLY CONNECTED by IDENTICAL WORDS and then a colon.
MALLORY: no number, no obligation
you can keep fighting with me about this or finish explaining Winter Soldier
your choice
NICOLE: Okay, I will go with the latter.
So (we turn to sepia) many many many years ago, in Brooklyn, Steve Rogers was very scrawny and poor.
(This is the FIRST movie you did not see in preparation for this, but less important than Winter Soldier)
And he had only one friend.
Guess who.
(It was Bucky.)
And when Steve’s PARENTS died, he went to live with Bucky.
And when WWII happened, they went to the war together.
And fought.
And then Bucky plunged off the side of a train into a rocky wintery gorge and Steve was like “oh no my best friend in the whole world” and was real sad.
That brings us to Winter Soldier.
MALLORY: hoo boy
NICOLE: So Steve is all unfrozen.
MALLORY: i saw the first movie!!!
NICOLE: Yes, at my house, but you were tweeting a lot at the time.
MALLORY: yes
NICOLE: So, in Winter Soldier, which is about THE GLOBAL SURVEILLANCE STATE
And how the world’s governments are corrupt and watching everyone constantly, largely due to a computer Nazi (hang in with me here)
There is a scary dude in a mask and bad hair and a metal arm, trying to kill everyone on behalf of Hydra (the computer Nazi and also now human Nazis.)
Who gets his brain wiped constantly and then programmed to kill.
And he and Steve are fighting, and Steve rips his mask off, and is like
oh damn
u r my best friend, Bucky
And Bucky says “who’s Bucky?” but then kind of remembers him?
MALLORY: so steve is immortal because of his captain america serum
NICOLE: No.
MALLORY: why is Bucky immortal
NICOLE: He was frozen. They are both frozen.
But Steve was frozen for decades
MALLORY: did Bucky get frozen in the first movie?
NICOLE: And Bucky gets thawed to kill people
MALLORY: so Bucky and Steve will both presumably age and die at a normal rate?
NICOLE: The Nazis put him in cryo between kill missions
Yes
MALLORY: !!!!
NICOLE: I KNOW
I know
MALLORY: BOLD MOVE
NICOLE: indeed
And so Robert Redford, who is the villain of Winter Soldier
Is like “wipe his brain again I don’t want him knowing he’s Bucky” and it’s very invasive looking and unpleasant
And now Steve is very, very emo
Bc Bucky is, as in this movie, kind of a problem
So Bucky is sent to keep him from doing the hero thing he needs to do to stop the Nazis
And they fight, but Steve cannot bring himself to actually hurt him in any way
And keeps saying “I’m with you to the end of the line” which is shit they said to each other as kids.
MALLORY: why is Robert Redford a Nazi
THAT IS FROM DOUBLE INDEMNITY
NICOLE: He values safety over freedom.
THANK YOU
MALLORY: THAT LINE IS FROM DOUBLE INDEMNITY HOW FUCKING DARE THEY
NICOLE: IT GETS ME EVERY TIME
DOUBLE INDEMNITY
MALLORY: WHAT FUCKING CHEEK
NICOLE: THE HANGMAN IS THE END OF THE LINE
MALLORY: GET A DIFFERENT QUOTE, MOVIE
NICOLE: No, 100%, firm agreeance
MALLORY: ok but I’m tracking
NICOLE: Anyway, the big Nazi floating air death ships start to fall out of the sky bc Steve did the thing to the machine he was supposed to
And like Steve is all YOU’RE MY BOY, BLUE to Bucky who is like “okay i feel like I do know you?” but they are plummetting to earth
And then Steve is drowning
and passes out
And Bucky pretty unceremoniously yanks him up onto the bank of the river so he doesn’t die
And is like “I have to figure some stuff out” and peaces.
And so at the end of Winter Soldier, people are like “what are you gonna do now, Steve?” and he’s all “shit, man, I need to find Bucky and help him.”
So that’s what brought us to Civil War.
MALLORY: okay, that is helpful, thank you!
SO: CIVIL WAR
NICOLE: And honestly it is not so much they have chemistry
It’s bc Steve has zero chemistry with anyone else
like just none
zero
MALLORY: ahahha
yeah what is it about Chris Evans?
NICOLE: like kissing your dead lady’s niece
MALLORY: he’s just a black hole of chemistry
NICOLE: I DUNNO, bc he looks AMAZING
MALLORY: I like him, he’s charming
NICOLE: just a hot, hot fella w a great body
MALLORY: but just…vibes bounce harmlessly off of him!
NICOLE: whoooosh
It just doesn’t take.
Okay, now you can talk about Civil War, which was not GREAT but I think was really pretty good.
MALLORY: so I saw a bunch of people on Twitter beforehand
being like “how could literally anyone side with Captain America in this movie”
and I was like, I bet i could, it would take an awful lot to get me to side with Robert Downey Jr
AND THEN THIS MOVIE MADE ME SIDE WITH ROBERT DOWNEY JR
THANKS A LOT, CAPTAIN AMERICA
NICOLE: I was initially feeling that a lil bit, tbh!
Like it went south real fast when it wasn’t actually Bucky it was that sad Sovokian dude
But for a BIT
I was like
MALLORY: Steve’s just like, I literally do not believe there should be any checks on our power
NICOLE: “maybe the UN might be of use here”
MALLORY: I mean, I’m not a big UN guy or anything
NICOLE: This is bc of SHIELD turning out to be half-Nazi though
is the thing
MALLORY: but it seems reasonable that they’re like, “maybe get permission before destroying Lagos”
oh dear
NICOLE: Like SHIELD is that nice organization run by Nick Fury that has always organized up the Avengers and given them aircraft carriers and stuff
MALLORY: I remember that!
they had a TV show
NICOLE: But Nick’s boss turned out to be Robert Redford, a Nazi
and the whole time the Nazis were scheming to drone-murder everyone who has ever googled “maybe socialism good?”
So you can understand that Steve is JUST coming off that whole reveal
And is like “why would I not think the Nazis/bad people might have hooks in at the UN”
But, again, Tony did not seem SUPER wrong to me at first
And the Wakandan king was really persuasive
MALLORY: I was team Tony from start to finish
NICOLE: lollllll
MALLORY: so okay
Bucky is
incredibly clumsily framed
by some guy who is like “yes, one blurry CCTV screenshot is definitely enough evidence to get an international manhunt going”
also: is it just me or have a LOT of superhero movies lately explored bystander victims?
like
to the point where
I feel like
NICOLE: oh a whole bunch
MALLORY: most of them start with
“IT’S ME, TIM”
NICOLE: lollll A HUMAN MAN LIKE YOU
MALLORY: “IN THE LAST MOVIE, MY WHOLE FAMILY DIED WHEN YOU BEAT UP AN ALIEN”
“I AM HERE FOR REVENGE”
NICOLE: like the WHOLE PLANET would have blown up in basically each movie
MALLORY: which I feel like must have seemed SUPER innovative the first time someone did that
but now is like
come on, guy
NICOLE: I’m sorry about your family!
MALLORY: like obviously it sucks
but I don’t believe anyone could Count of Monte Cristo someone who killed their family BY ACCIDENT
right??
NICOLE: Yeah
That guy was pretty messed up though.
MALLORY: he sure was
NICOLE: I also knew IMMEDIATELY that voicemail was from a dead person
IMMEDIATELY
MALLORY: ahahaahaha
NICOLE: Bc no one listens to voicemails
unless the person is dead
He would be like “oh my wife called”
“I’ll call her back”
MALLORY: YES
NICOLE: nah, she’s dead. so’s the kid. you’ve got some pain.
MALLORY: so Peggy dies in this movie also
NICOLE: what was his weird banter with the hotel lady for?
right right peggy
MALLORY: oh!
that was SO WEIRD
NICOLE: bacon!
coffee!
TEE HEE
MALLORY: he always gets bacon and coffee!
“This is a very humanizing detail,” some studio exec said
NICOLE: lots of people eat the same breakfast every day
MALLORY: “really makes you think”
NICOLE: perhaps MOST
MALLORY: ok but so Peggy
and he already had the sad reunion with her
in some
other movie?
right?
NICOLE: So, there was a VERY SAD SCENE in winter soldier
very very sad
MALLORY: he’s at her bedside
oh yes
NICOLE: And she’s talking all great and normal and encouraging him to live in this new world
And then she coughs
(always bad)
And then looks at him and says (basically actual quote)
“Oh, STEVE. You came back! IT’S BEEN SO LONG AND NOW I’M SO OLD”
MALLORY: very Peter Pan
NICOLE: and he said “I couldn’t leave my best girl behind”
MALLORY: AWWWW
NICOLE: bc he’s from the forties
I KNOW
it was real sad
MALLORY: damn I really should have seen that other movie
NICOLE: WHICH IS WHY
WHICH IS WHY
IT WAS FUUUUCKED UP
MALLORY: THE NIECE
WHY THE FUCK
NICOLE: that he KISSED her
MALLORY: WHY DID HE KISS HER
IN A PARKING GARAGE
NICOLE: also you are GRIEVING
MALLORY: IN THE MIDDLE OF A REGULARASS CONVERSATION
NICOLE: also you are being CHASED
also you have NO CHEMISTRY
MALLORY: LIKE ONE DAY AFTER YOUR GIRLFRIEND DIED
it wasn’t even like
NICOLE: one. day.
MALLORY: the kind of conversation
NICOLE: one day
MALLORY: where you think “Oh, a kiss is coming, ugh, they don’t have a good enough reason to but I can tell it’s coming”
it was like “here’s a car,” “we’re going to go do something now,” KISS FOR SOME REASON?
NICOLE: I did not see it coming
I made a really disgusted guttural noise
Steve shushed me
MALLORY: was that the only kiss in the movie?
it was terrible
NICOLE: Yes
MALLORY: terrible
NICOLE: It was, wasn’t it
And then weirdly the red witch girl had a sexual vibe with the robot guy, right?
(Nicole’s husband, who was born in 1968, read a draft of this Movie Yelling and yelled that in the comic books, Vision and Scarlet Witch did indeed have a romance and actually got married and then she had a baby, via “magic.”)
MALLORY: oh DEFINITELY
NICOLE: okay, good
MALLORY: the brain girl and Sad Paul Bettany had GREAT chemistry
NICOLE: That was off-putting
MALLORY: I SUPER wanted them to make out
I LOVE that his entire career is just, like
British Guy Who Knows Too Much To Be Happy
NICOLE: it was like when data said “I am fully functional”
MALLORY: oh my god
NICOLE: like “yeah i can do this”
MALLORY: NICOOOOOOLLE
I’M CRYING NOW
NICOLE: let’s make a synthethic humanoid baby, girl
I mean it’s Tony Stark’s house, you know there are cases of lube everywhere and poppers and stuff
MALLORY: why was Pepper not in this movie?
there was a moment that was like “oh no she’s gone”
NICOLE: I mean Tony is terrible and obviously cheats on her constantly
There is no chance that man is physically faithful to her
MALLORY: so she left him?
NICOLE: Yes
Bc he did unleash the death robot Ultron
MALLORY: I didn’t see that either sorry
NICOLE: which was why sokovia or whatever was destroyed BUT NOT THE PLANET
I am spelling slobovian differently each time bc it is the most half-assed “fake Eastern European nation” name imaginable
MALLORY: okay so Bucky spends the whole movie being like
“I’LL DIE BEFORE I GO TO PRISON”
NICOLE: Like, good, Tony, YOU should be registered by the state definitely
His prison experiences have involved a lot of torture
That would be very traumatic
MALLORY: which is weird because he seems fairly remorseless for a guy who’s supposed to be able to remember all the killing he did?
usually in movies like this the guy is like “No, let them take me, I deserve it” and the friend is like “NO YOU ARE WORTHY OF REDEMPTION”
NICOLE: like if I were tortured and brainwashed I prob would expect people to feel real bad for me but I would still say “sorry about your mom”
MALLORY: but Bucky is just like “yeah I will gladly accept your help in beating up the world to save me from consequences”
NICOLE
okay we gotta get to it
NICOLE: let’s do this
MALLORY: Bucky fucking MURDER-KILLED TONY’S PARENTS
AND HE
DOES
NOT
APOLOGIZE
ONCE
I GET that he was brainwashed
but you STILL
YOU STILLLLLLL
SAY “I’M SO SORRY, I DIDN’T MEAN IT, I’M SORRY FOR YOUR LOSS”
NICOLE: like he did have a chance, too, like not while tony was trying to kill him, but when cap had tony pinned down
he could have said it then
MALLORY: like Jessica Jones brainwashed-killed Luke Cage’s wife
and she apologizes!
NICOLE: it’s the right thing to do
MALLORY: and he understands but he can still barely forgive her!
and she feels terrible remorse EVEN THOUGH SHE KNOWS she didn’t mean to!
and this is the SAME SITUATION
and Bucky is just like “this doesn’t need to be said”
NICOLE: Tony was still overreacting, he knows about Hydra
and his issues with being a shitty whiny son are also running the show a bit here
but
he should have apologized
I am Canadian, so the idea of not apologizing is very strange to me
Like if someone stole my car and killed someone with it and I had to go identify the car and the dead person’s family was there, I would say “I’m so sorry my car killed your family”
even though there is no connection with me there
So having just watched A VIDEO of yourself choking out someone’s mom
and not apologizing
that’s not cool
by the way can we movie yell about neighbors 2, before the end
MALLORY: yes
absolutely
on all counts
like
Bucky was like
literally chilling at one point
letting Steve DRIVE HIS SHIELD INTO TONY’S ACTUAL HEART
NICOLE: he is a very broken soul
MALLORY: just continuing to not apologize for Tony’s dead mom
NICOLE: Tony does not have a heart
MALLORY: and then after ALL THIS
where he’s super fucking Helen of Troy
NICOLE: Tony is here on scientific sufferance
MALLORY: and just like, “Yes, destroy worlds on my behalf”
he PUTS HIMSELF BACK IN JAIL
ALL OF THIS WAS TO AVOID JAIL
AND NOW HE IS IN ICE JAIL
NICOLE: he puts himself in FROZEN now that people are like “okay let’s figure out how to fix you” instead of potential like Nazi torture w guys who know your old control words
Like that would do a real number on me
MALLORY: the UN was going to Nazi-torture him???
NICOLE: I mean he would not know differently bc the first guy who showed up to question him immediately tranced him out w his Nazi control words
I would be VERY CONCERNED about the UN at that point
like he doesn’t know the guy killed the real UN guy, you know?
he’s just like “oh damn”
MALLORY: I mean
I GUESS
begrudgingly
fair enough
Bucky just seems like a real pillow princess and I don’t appreciate that
moreover he was sullen and inert
NICOLE: Note that we are not yelling about Black Panther bc all of his scenes were great
MALLORY: and you know my feelings about sullen men
NICOLE: lol
oh yes
MALLORY: oh yeah he was great!
he had like, mini-Wolverine claws
NICOLE: full agreement on sullen and black panther
MALLORY: and a great moment where he’s like, oh no, if I kill the guy who killed my father, there is more killing! CRISIS OF CONSCIENCE
NICOLE: oh, BIG TIME
he had a lot of self-possession
and reflection
and those ace claws
MALLORY: yeah, he was great, and I think his movie will be great
NICOLE: the cast looks incredible
and ryan coogler is great
MALLORY: the li’l baby spiderman stuff was….I can’t tell if I liked it?
like obviously it’s always fun to have a fan insert
NICOLE: I was MIXED
MALLORY: “Whoa, you’re [character name]!”
“Wow, I can’t believe I’m fighting with [character name]!”
NICOLE: the actor was fun, I just don’t really enjoy children in movies
MALLORY: why wasn’t it Andrew Garfield, by the way?
NICOLE: He’s out, this is the reboot kid
MALLORY: AGAIN?
NICOLE: yeah
MALLORY: Andrew was Spiderman for like eight seconds!
I mean, okay
NICOLE: he was real beat up about Emma Stone dying
hard to go from there
MALLORY: it was weird to me, that big airport fight, because it seemed to me like it was set up to a CURB STOMP BATTLE
but for some reason EVERYONE was equally matched
NICOLE: and ANT MAN came and was not useless
that movie was really fun
MALLORY: Paul Rudd! I’ll ALWAYS welcome him
NICOLE: like it’s not a serious movie but i laughed a bunch
MALLORY: he was great, just great
NICOLE: charming
charming fella
MALLORY: I welcome the Ant Man
NICOLE: oh gosh when rhodes got paralyzed, that sucked a lot
Tony didn’t get all mad at Vision or Black Falcon about it though
MALLORY: should he have?
NICOLE: but obviously they were fighting and the whole point was fighting
MALLORY: I thought it was Steve and Bucky who paralyzed Don Cheadle
NICOLE: it would be weird if no one got hurt
no
vision shot at black falcon and missed
and hit don
steve and bucky had bounced
he asked vision how it had happened and vision was like “I was distracted”
prob bc of sexy red witch
MALLORY: I honestly thought for like ten minutes that Paul Bettany was Dr Manhattan
“is this universe part of the Watchmen continuity? Cool”
because I did not know who Vision was
NICOLE: there’s a lot of similarities tbh
vision was created to fight ultron
vision is tony’s computer jarvis in a robot body
MALLORY: ahahhahah that’s rad
NICOLE: oh black widow was in this movie but I don’t like her that much and don’t care
MALLORY: she seemed fine!
NICOLE: she’s fine, she should get a movie
but she’s just good at fighting
MALLORY: Jeremy Renner did not need to be in this movie
NICOLE: she doesn’t have powers
SEE ALSO. EXHIBIT B.
MALLORY: I hope Tony never forgives anyone and rebuilds the entire world in his own image
I hope Tony goes full Randian
and just murders everybody for being unworthy of him
NICOLE: he’ll prob go the other way and start meditating and stuff
drinking green juice
lure pepper back in with empty promises
MALLORY: find your bliss, man
I’m 100% pro-Tony doing what works for him
all I want is happiness for Tony
NICOLE: I want nothing more than for him to be sad forever
for the rest of his life
he is awful and he builds disgusting looking buildings with gauche interiors and gaudy wet bars
Wait.
Daniel Bruhl is in this movie? Why did nobody tell me Daniel Bruhl was in this movie? All the time resident twelve year old spent trying to hype me up by telling me how awesome Spider-man was could’ve been streamlined if he’d just known to say ‘your long-standing German crush of a decade plus is a minor character in it.’ Sold.
I love Daniel Bruhl too and I had the same reaction! He speaks German in it. I love it when he speaks German.
YES SAME
I spent the entire time watching the film saying “HEY I know that guy? I think? He’s kind of dreamy right? Why don’t I know his name?!”
Clearly I was focused on the most important parts of the film.
Yup, he was in it. The strangest choice for Marvel antagonist ever, because… I mean… Daniel Brühl?! The only one worse would have been, idk, Til Schweiger.
It was VERY weird seeing him in that movie, and the audience (this was *in Germany*, btw) was very confused, too.
Oh yes soooo weird. Apparently he’s been promoted to proper!actor? I have no idea when *that* happened. Daniel Brühl… *shakes head*
Well, he’s not a bad actor, just… the wrongest type of actor for this role? Nice, little, proper Daniel Brühl? I just don’t believe it. (I think he got into Hollywood movies with that one featuring Assange!Cumberbatch. That one was a believable role.)
So I might be a bit late for the whole discussion, but I have a theory!
I spent an hour yesterday trying to find out what the criteria are for the Deutschen Film Förderung (German State Subsidies for Movies) to fund such a movie as Captain America, which does not see – at first glance – to be the kind of movie, which German State Subsidies are normally likely to support. But the only real criteria I was able to discern (Its very complicated: There are a lot of different funds and Im not sure which one is responsible for Captain America (However, the most important one also funded Hunger Games 3.2 (?) with like 2 Mio €. Why?)), is that 20 % of the production costs must flow to Germany.
However, I have the distinct feeling that their are other considerations. For example Berlin and Leipzig (Still not sure about that, but I think someone in the movie said that the airoport was in Leipzig) did not makle a lot of sense as fight backgrounds. So maybe the film Förderung is more likely to fund movies which showcase German cities as good backgrounds for fight scenes?
And also, Daniel Brühl did not really make a good villain, so maybe the German Film Fund has its fingers in it as well? Does this make sense?
no one told me either! my heart stopped when i saw his stupid (trans: beautiful ageless) face, and before i could grab my partner and hiss my excitement into his ear, he grabbed my arm and we made eye contact and both knew how happy the other was at that moment
His face is so stupid. I am Louise Belcher, he is my Boo Boo, and I just want to slap him. What a disgusting beautiful garbage angel.
FINALLY THE CIVIL WAR REAX I WAS LOOKING FOR.
ALLORY: Bucky fucking MURDER-KILLED TONY’S PARENTS
AND HE
DOES
NOT
APOLOGIZE
ONCE
I GET that he was brainwashed
but you STILL
YOU STILLLLLLL
SAY “I’M SO SORRY, I DIDN’T MEAN IT, I’M SORRY FOR YOUR LOSS”
This, thiiiiisss! And great comparison with Jessica Jones.
Yes, indeedy, agreed on the A++ Jessica Jones link. Also, am Canadian, can confirm non-apology bafflement is intensified for us.
My mom’s side of the family is from the part of the upper Midwest that’s basically Canada, and I’m on board this bafflement train.
They couldn’t even write an apology from the Avengers in general for destroying entire cities. You think they’re gonna wrote an apology from Bucky for one car wreck?
I would love to see some bad Avengers apologies, though. Just fully terrible condescending ones.
“Dear Slobknobia sorry for saving, honestly. most of you. Sorry the bad guy picked your specific city and we couldn’t FULLY SAVE more than 90% of you.”
“Dear Lagos, sorry 11 people died, instead of the 500-800 in that marketplace.”
100% here for what must be the entire contents of the @AvengersOfficial drafts folder.
I’m surprised nobody has started a Twitter of this, honestly.
If anyone starts this Twitter, please let me know. I’ll be the one RTing and liking every single tweet.
I’m with you on the whole “failing to save everyone =/= murdering the people you didn’t save” but Sokovia was pretty much Tony’s fault. Like Loki/Chitauri invasion, Hydra doing Hydra shit wasn’t preventable and things would have been way worse if they weren’t there, but with Sokovia, I think people are justifiably mad at them for failing to adequately deal with a problem they caused.
“Dear New York, sorry we made a mess getting rid of those weird space bugs that were coming down out of the sky. Next time we’ll let you deal with it.”
Also remember who it was that was going to NUKE New York? That wasn’t the Avengers. That was the committee in charge…
So true.
I don’t know if I can handle seeing this movie if it makes me take Iron Man’s side. I CAN NEVER TAKE IRON MAN’S SIDE.
Even if you take Iron Man’s side at first you will not be on it by the end because even when Iron Man accidentally almost does the right thing he does it for the wrongest reasons.
Thank god, because Tony Stark being a decent guy is a mind-fuck that I just could not handle.
I didn’t take Iron Man’s side, but I felt bad for him a lot.
You won’t take his side. Well, you’re unlikely to. You might understand his actions and behavior, but that doesn’t mean you’ll agree with them. I talked about that a little in my response, here, if you’re interested.
I wholeheartedly did not take Iron Man’s side and my kid is still mad at me about it.
I was never on Iron Man’s side. I could never be on Iron Man’s side.
This whole movie could have been prevented if Iron Man had been like “Those Sokovia people died because I thought it would be cool to invent Skynet, fuck, I have poor decision-making skills!” and then let Cap take over as boss instead of forking over scapegoat rights by signing a pre-nup with all the world’s corrupt governments.
How did they negotiate an agreement between 117 countries without any of the Avengers but Tony hearing about it, anyways? I feel like that would have made the news some time before the final wording was hammered out and all 117 countries were fully on board.
Maybe Tony’s the only one who watches something other than CNN?
Surely Vision is connected to the internet, though? And someone somewhere is gathering info to find situations like the one in Lagos, that can’t just be Tony.
Also why didn’t Tony tell everyone else? Did he just find out that morning? Or did he just keep his mouth shut because he makes terrible decisions?
I mean… like, yes. All of this. There is almost no way at least one other Avenger didn’t know this was happening. And if Captain America is New York 4eva, why didn’t he read about it while enjoying the Times with a coffee in the morning? He can’t just go immediately to the crossword, can he?
This is assuming Cap HAS the time to enjoy the Times with a coffee. Isn’t he, like, always doing Avenger stuff and/or looking for Bucky? And anyway, he’s kind of married to his “job” so he probably doesn’t like downtime anyway.
The larger point does still stand, though. “Oh, hey, 117 countries decided this JUST THIS MORNING, here is a 5000 page document that we will pass around and you all will just look at the cover which has information we already told you and not open it up to try to even look at the table of contents or whatevs.” (That really bugged me, obviously. I mean, someone hands you a large document changing your life, and you just look at the title???)
oh man, SAME, I was only a paralegal for six months and I was practically frothing at the screen like READ THE DAMN THING COVER TO COVER BEFORE SIGNING OR NOT SIGNING PLEASE
No but didn’t Steve read through it? I seem to remember him sitting there actually reading through it which was why he was all no way not gonna sign not happening
Perhaps Steve has poor reading skills?
Everyone should have at least a Google Alert.
Truth! Tony can easily not be a superhero. He can retire and more or less not be a threat if he really tried. Whereas people with actual powers like the Hulk & Scarlet Witch will always be hated and hunted even if they try to live a quiet life because they are too dang powerful (this comment brought to you by a lifetime of X-Men feels)
TRUTH: Tony decided NOT to be a superhero at the end of Iron Man 3, and then was all, JK, LOL, I’m still an Avenger, totes still ruining the world with my crazy inventions. (Just like dear ol’ dad, Tony. Ask Peggy for more info on all his shenanigans.)
I would just like to Movie Yell for a moment about how if you are going to kill Peggy Carter offscreen just to provide Further Motivation for Captain America and then cancel her television series, the LEAST you can do is to not have her last moments be a terrible and kind of self-involved eulogy by That Blonde followed by the Dumbest Marvel Character Romantic Pairing Ever.
The most offensive thing to me about that whole situation is that “Aunt Peggy thought this guy was cool” is a solid motivation for her to trust and want to help Steve! There did not have to be unearned and forced “romance” to sell it! She had the potential to be a cool character, like how in Winter Soldier she was the one SHIELD person who was like “Are you sure?” when evil boss was like “We gotta kill Cap.” What are they going to do next, kill her off the night before she has plans to gently take Steve’s virginity a la Jenny Calendar?
Honestly, even with the hackneyed romance she just seems like a terrible and generally untrustworthy CIA ( or whatever) agent. Why does Cap trust that she isn’t a triple-agent or something. Why is she so disloyal to her job?
Also, A+ Buffy reference.
Well you could say the same thing about Steve in Winter Soldier. They have a similar unwillingness to blindly follow orders when something smells rotten which is why them working together and being pals would make sense and be fun.
That… is fair.
(I don’t trust her.)
Can we talk about the eulogy??? what kind of bs eulogy was that?? it was an Inspiring Speech in the context of like, Steve Roger’s personal struggle, but imagine being one of the mourners at Peggy Carter’s funeral?? You rolled up to hear a few kind words from her niece, maybe some cute anecdotes, followed by words about how we’ll all miss her once she’s gone, but then it all gets HIJACKED by some dude’s man pain, not even man pain over Peggy Carter, but POLITICAL MANPAIN, and ugh.
I choose to believe there were two additional, better eulogies given by other people who knew Peggy, which were just not shown in the movie.
I need to believe that
Angie. Fo’ sho. She’s a big movie star nowadays, don’t you know?
Edited to add that it’s really sad that everyone else she was buds with (Jarvis, Howard, probably all her SSR buddies) are dead now. Just like the show D’:
“EVERYTHING HIJACKED BY POLITICAL MANPAIN” could be a summary of most superhero movies imo.
Is there a Tumblr named after this? Asking for a friend
Also, like, a lot of life.
Most of the eulogy was a quote from comic!Steve during the Civil War arc in the comics. All the bit about planting yourself like a tree and saying “no, you move.” I think they meant it to be an homage to how Steve learned so much from Peggy, as well as an Easter egg for the comics. Probably just the latter, to be honest, but I choose to believe the former as well, because I choose to believe Peggy Carter taught Steve just about everything.
It was almost like a super overreaction on the studio’s part to people talking about Steve & Bucky’s chemistry.
Whoops we killed off his lady, yet we still have to assert his hetero-cred….(IDK why, apparently comic book movies are the last bastions of heteronormativity or something?).
Voilà! Peggy’s niece and random awkward smoochy time.
Pepper’s gone, better not have any Science Bros stuff!
I think my biggest movie-yell here was during the scene where grieving crazy doctor man infiltrates the room where Bucky is being held and begins to say the Special Control Words. Bucky breaks loose of his bonds, and I was like, “Oh good, now he can cover his ears. The Words are useless if he can’t hear them, right?”
And he doesn’t.
He continues to try to break out of an impenetrable cage by RIPPING BACK BARS and I’m just like, “LITERALLY THIS WHOLE AVENGERS BREAK UP WOULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED IF YOU’D JUST COVERED YOUR EARS FOR TWO SECONDS”
And his hair was horrible.
(And you don’t kiss your girlfriend’s niece, Steve, especially when that niece runs an in depth revenge plot of wealthy Massachusetts families. Though I take deep pleasure in thinking that Amanda Clarke somehow infiltrated the UN and is using Captain America for her own ends).
Agree 100%.
I think my main complaints that were not covered by Mallory and Nicole were:
– Cover your ears, Bucky
– What’s the TV trope for a super-elaborate plan that relies on coincidences and people behaving EXACTLY the way you expect them to? Like,
villain dude intentionally calls the housekeeper for breakfast so that she will go into his apartment and he just knows she won’t leave the tray by the door, she’ll look in the bathroom and find the body, and
when the body and the Bucky prosthetics are found, villain dude knows that Tony will get this information and realize Bucky was framed, and he will tell Ross, but Ross will not believe Tony, and Ross will make no effort to independently verify that Bucky was framed, and no other law enforcement agency will put it together and tell him, and
because of this, Tony will turn to Falcon to find out where Cap and Bucky are, and although Falcon would not normally tell him, he will tell him once he sees the evidence that Bucky was framed, and
Tony will arrive BEFORE Cap and Bucky find the villain, and thus the villain will be able to cue the video, prompting Tony to attack Bucky
I mean, there were so many places where that plan could have gone wrong.
/end rant
I really did enjoy the movie though.
I definitely had a similar reaction when the villain’s plan all came together perfectly. I was like, “You must be great at surprise birthday parties!” Well, like, before his life was ripped apart, you know?
But I also was a big fan of the movie. For whatever reason, a lot of the MCU films seem to know exactly what frequencies and/or colors to use to immediately suspend my disbelief.
villain dude intentionally calls the housekeeper for breakfast so that she will go into his apartment and he just knows she won’t leave the tray by the door, she’ll look in the bathroom and find the body,
That one actually made sense. By calling up his breakfast at the usual time, his alibi is in place. Doesn’t matter if she discovered the body right away or, after checking back later and seeing that his food hasn’t been touched, she discovers it in the afternoon. The point is that his desired narrative is in place.
It’s called a Xanatos Roulette! Or it was, before TvTropes decided they don’t like naming tropes after characters.
Batman Gambit
Oh my god it makes total sense now – the hair is there to always COVER HIS EARS so his hands dont have to!
I’m choosing to believe that the code words are a series of layering commands that reinforce each other, so after the first few, you can’t kill the guy in front of you, after the next few you can’t close your ears, after the last few, bam, you’re back under control.
Thumbs-up-ing this for the Revenge callout. I freaking love that show (though I’ll admit to not following its most recent season), and Amanda Clarke is the only person I see waxing philosophical about Peggy’s awesomeness. Who’s Sharon?
So, much like Bucky, I have cue words. (That’s a real thing that happens. Whatever else you have to say about the MCU–and I have a lot–they really did do their research about Bucky’s situation.)
Anyway, I really don’t think covering his ears would work? I mean firstly, most people can’t actually fully block out the noises around them by covering their ears, only dull them. But more importantly, I’d be extremely surprised if he hadn’t been trained out of moving while being cued? Any type of physical resistance is generally something that goes pretty quickly. And when you’re being cued, it usually works really quickly, and there’s not a lot of time to resist–if your cue is a sentence or two, or a series of words, you’ll usually start feeling very off after the first word or two. If he was still thinking rationally and able to make choices after the agent started to cue him, I’d honestly find it unrealistic, at least in the experience of myself and most people I know who’ve survived similar situations.
Mostly-unrelated complaint: Why couldn’t they fix Rhodes with the magic medical thingy that they used to fix Clint in Age of Ultron?
Also, Sharon and Steve did flirt for at least twelve seconds in Winter Soldier, as Steve helpfully reminded us just before the kiss. That doesn’t justify the kiss on its own, but if you add in Steve’s search for connection to the modern world and the fact that he hasn’t so much as flirted with anyone else since he was thawed, then I think the kiss is not entirely unreasonable.
I mean, it still wasn’t a good idea, and it’s definitely not going to lead to a healthy relationship, but it’s not totally implausible.
I think you’re right about Steve and Sharon.
And like, in MY perfect world if they were going to have a romance between them they would at least acknowledge the potential weirdness, and they would both be like “I am into you but also AUGH” and it would be, like, the ONE TIME I am okay with a superhero having a one-movie-only romance.
For most of this movie, I was like “yeah, I am not sure how they think this is going to work?” But Chris Evans has a really nice I Want To Kiss You face, so in the moment I was okay with ignoring logic for makeouts.
And you’ve just managed to articulate what gets me about makeouts in both movies and real life – a good I Want To Kiss You face. #learningaboutmyself
Also, in Steve’s defense, when he was flirting with Sharon in Winter Soldier, he didn’t know she was Peggy’s niece.
But I’m pretty sure Sharon was perfectly well aware that she was flirting with her aunt’s long lost sweetheart.
I’m just going to imagine a deleted scene in which Sharon goes to visit her aunt on her deathbed and Old Peggy is like “Come closer, dear. Closer. Listen! I never had the chance to ride that glorious stallion. Please, for my sake, partake in the pleasures of his chemically enhanced flesh” and Sharon is like “Gross, Aunt Peggy!” but her sense of family loyalty is too strong to deny Peggy her dying wish.
hah! I’m sure it’ll show up on the director’s cut, the Russos would love that shit.
STAHP. I’m laughing out loud at work at Peggy being all, “Dammit, but the sex would have been AMAZING! Curse you Hydra!” #feminism
Seriously, though! Don’t try to tell me that the serum selectively grew every part of his body besides his man-parts. He may be sexually inexperienced but the boy is for sure packing some heat.
Sexual inexperienced? After living in the Avengers Dorm for years/months/whatever? I’m not so sure…
>Mostly-unrelated complaint: Why couldn’t they fix Rhodes with the magic medical thingy that they used to fix Clint in Age of Ultron?
Also, there’s this genius-level engineer dude on hand, who could be pretty easily convinced to build his buddy the most amazing exoskeleton/prosthesis ever. Why is that even played up as being an issue? It would have been totally in character for tony to just go: shrug, it would have happened sooner or later to one of us, don’t worry, I’ll build you BETTER LEGS.
I think Tony did build him the exoskeleton legs he had at the end, but they weren’t really up to Tony’s usual standards.
I absolutely did not catch that. Hm. No, I think they were just incompetent.
I’m not saying it was racism, but I’m not not saying it was racism. Not Tony, the writers.
The way they played it in the movie, or at least, the way I took it, Steve didn’t seem to have a strong sexual tension with her, and I think that was deliberate. But she saved his life and the lives of his allies and friends and she’s just lingering in that scene when she should be going. It was almost a gift, from Steve to her. You know he only has eyes for Bucky.
I loved little baby Spider Man!! Peter Parker is supposed to be a kid! Not a grown ass man playing a kid. Love love love that casting choice.
Yeah I did not think I could ever get interested in another Spider-Man move but… I am intrigued by the new version. If we can’t have a Miles Spider-Man this kid is pretty fun.
TOM HOLLAND IS PERFECT AS SPIDERMAN i am still leery about his young aunt but w/e
I’m ok with the aunt, but only because it’s Maris Tomei.
It’s not that weird. If Aunt May is 50 (Marisa Tomei is 51) and PP is 16, that would mean she became an aunt at 34 which sounds about right. Right?
i mean rationally i know it totally makes sense that his aunt is not the same age as other high school students’ grandmas and i will love her to pieces once the new movie is out. i am just still irrationally shocked from the theater.
YES YES baby spiderman I am here for it
At the same time, I wish Tony had gotten some horrified pushback from the team about pulling in an obvious wee baby. Because that’s gross.
Yes. He was adorable and cute, but there were so many issues I had with it:
1) He was clearly only there to set up the Marvel Spiderman movie, and it was shoehorned and WHY IS HE IN MY CAPTAIN AMERICA MOVIE, DAMMIT?
2) From his conversation with Tony, he should have been on CAP’S side, and that was something I wanted from their conversation.
Baby Spiderman: Heroes should help people! With great power comes great responsibility! [Oops, wrong Spiderman?]
Cap: That’s what I said! Join my side!
Baby Spiderman: Okay, cool!
But instead we got I’m from Queens, I’m from Brooklyn, look, aren’t we adorbs?
3) Tony is terrible for basically manipulating a child into fighting in a seriously dangerous battle. NOT COOL, Tony, why are you such an awful, awful person?
Yeah, I spent the whole big fight worrying the teenager was gonna hurt himself!
YES HE WAS CUTE BUT THERE’S NO REASON HE COULDN’T HAVE BEEN ADORABLE TEEN NERD MILES MORALES INSTEAD OF ADORABLE TEEN NERD PETER PARKER (FOR THE THIRD TIME.)
Sorry, sorry, sorry. I just don’t understand why the little spiderling NEEDED to be another white dude.
YAY FOR AGE-APPROPRIATE SPIDER MAN!!!
Ugh I am going to miss The Toast so much.
*small voice* Me too.
Miss it? Why, is it going somewhere?
Yeah.
Oh, sweetie.
I thought that the whole time I was reading…
Somebody’s going to say this on every post for the next 6 weeks, aren’t they?
Tony literally brought an underage child across country borders without his legal guardian’s permission (with threats too!). And then has the gall to complain that Scarlet Witch was freed to join the fight. Tony is always wrong 2kforever. Pepper should just take over and be Rescue and Tony can retire and stop messing stuff up.
Oh my god THIS DROVE ME CRAZY. BRO. You cannot fly a child out to fight his first real battle against people who very well could accidentally kill him!!!! And he doesn’t even know why he’s fighting!!!!!
Everything about Tony’s recruitment of Peter screamed “child predator”
YES! Plus there are actually Spiderman comic arcs where he helps out a kid who’s being predated against, partly by saying “Hey, this happened to me once, it’s not your fault either.” So that was a suuuuper weird thing to do with that character of all of Marvel!
Yes, it was so creepy! MCU clearly did excellent body language / choreography / whatever in that scene because Tony was 100% a total predatory creep there. It was endlessly disturbing and totally in character.
That scene was grooming.
“We don’t need to tell your aunt.”
I ranted about this just up there ^^^, but yes, AGREED. Tony, once again, proves he is a terrible human being.
Oh huh, I had literally not at all considered that Steve might be sensitive re: government oversight due to that whole SHIELD/Hydra thing. That’s actually a good point.
But for real though, seeing The Vision in a button-down shirt and goddamn chinos was hilarious. It’s like watching a dog walk on hind legs.
Okay, and for me, the fact that this motivation was not made explicit OR EVEN ALLUDED TO is one of the biggest flaws of the movie.
I mean. Add the words “remember Hydra?” in the conference room scene, improve #TeamCap’s argument by 1000%.
This movie was clearly 2 plots mashed together because RDJ got interested in the movie (see also, Russo brothers’ comments on production). And while it’s still a really good movie, there are lots of places where a little more explanation would have gone a long way in making things clearer to the audience.
Not to mention having fought actual, literal Hitler-type Nazis. Sure, we’re just going to make a list of super people. And maybe you could wear something special so we know it’s you.
HERE IS MY THEORY ON WHY WE ARE TOLD IT’S “COFFEE AND BACON”
Just a few scenes earlier, we saw two guys talking to each other through a door. Hesitating. One guy ultimately deciding to trust and open the door – and getting killed.
So now they want to introduce this housekeeper character, because she’s going to find the body later. But the villain will look really stupid if he just GOES AND OPENS THE DOOR bc they just illustrated how dangerous that would be.
So they made sure his breakfast was very STRONG-SMELLING food and drink. And he opens the door and remarks, “I could smell it through the door.” And that’s how we know that he deduced it was safe to open the door.
It is a very small detail but I believe that’s the reason why it’s there. It worked for me.
Huh, that’s clever. Thanks for the theory!
While we’re on the subject of Avengers and No Chemistry, can we also discuss the random, flat, no-chemistry having, forced “love” attraction thing between Bruce (my fave) and Natasha in Age of Ultron? Why did that have to happen to me?
What love attraction thing? I don’t remember that happening. Pretty sure it didn’t. 6_6
Agreed. There’s nothing to discuss because it didn’t happen.
90% of that movie was non-canon as far as I’m concerned. I will forever be salty about Whedon’s childish refusal to incorporate the canon and character development of every movie that happened between Avengers and Avengers: Age of Ultron and then whining and tantruming when his movie got the terrible, “what-the-fuck-did-I-just-watch” reception it deserved.
Fuck that guy for real.
Whedon always, always writes terrible, bad, no-good ‘romances’ that have no chemistry, no affection, or both. I blame him entirely.
Also I would like to Movie Yell with JOY over Steve’s arms in that helicopter scene. THE ARMS.
My movie wife straight-up giggled. Haven’t seen that level of female gaze-ness since the Conan reboot and that loving shot of Jason Momoa’s ass.
I sunk down in my seat and made pathetic moaning/crying noises.
So did Bucky iirc
real reason why that helicopter went straight back.
if you watch closely you can see his eyes turn into little cartoon hearts, which was the real moment when he broke through his programming.
I was frankly outraged at how often Bucky obviously objectified Steve. He’s a hardworking civil servant, Bucky, not a slab of meat! I guess the Nazis didn’t bother to update him with current social norms.
Everyone in the theater I was in laughed aloud, with joy I presume.
I know I did.
As did I.
Me too! (Also sorry for accidentally following you when I was trying to click on reply. Am not your internet stalker.)
All good!
The arms were great, but how heavy is he? How did he drag the helicopter down at the start of that scene, without, like, hooking his feet under something?
YOU SHUT UP ABOUT PHYSICS AND LET US HAVE THIS, OKAY
shhhhhhh
I may have accidentally blurted ‘physics does not work that way!’ in the theatre when I saw that scene, which I think was kind of missing the point, which was obviously ARMS.
Personal magnetism.
THE. ARMS. (I have nothing more to contribute. The arms render me speechless.)
And the quick wrist flick to “get a better grip” *COUGH* flex harder *COUGH*.
Um, yes. I almost had to look away. Arms are my weakness, and my husband shot me a look. Probably because I made some squeeing noises.
My boyfriend gave me a grumpy look. And has since intensified his morning pull-up routine. Don’t know whether to feel guilty or deeply satisfied.
I spent way too long looking for a gif I wanted, but I’ve come to realize that it probably doesn’t exist, and if it does, I probably wouldn’t know how to link it here anyway. So, to you I say in words:
“No reason we can’t do both!” (President Bartlet, The West Wing)
I am Catholic, so I FEEL YOU on the guilt thing, but it also means I have years of experience talking myself out of it. Seriously, deep satisfaction! I mean, you didn’t say, “I don’t like your flabby arms,” you merely expressed interest in some impressive arms, and he took the initiative to do that for his own reasons (to impress you?). That is on him, and you should just bask in its glory 🙂
There was some bit I saw quoted where Chris Evans evidently lobbied to be shirtless in that scene, and they said no.
thank god, they’d have been cleaning the theaters for months afterwards
I was waiting for his shirt to rip and fall off due to all that strain.
You’re just taunting me now,
Favorite part of the movie.
I love Marisa Tomei but baby!Aunt May? Hollywood, no.
Also I was so uncomfortable with that Vision/Wanda thing – I know that’s Paul Bettany under there! He’s 1000ty years older than that girl! Hollywood. No.
Also also I thought Steve and Tony both had good points and should have tried to compromise. But this is a punching movie I guess, so straight to punching it is! Sigh.
Marisa Tomei is fifty one! Not a baby! Actually age appropriate for Downey Jr to be flirting with! (I, too, initially thought ‘too young’, then I looked at their respective ages and decided that I was OK with that)
I never would have guessed she was 51! And I approve the flirting with RDJ, I like her playfulness with Peter, I just. Think it would be nice to let people visibly age? But I guess that’s not what we see action movies for, really.
Oh, it’s Hollywood, she has to be /super attractive/ fifty one, but I’m kind of… liking that there’s a role there for a middle aged woman? There seems to be a weird gap (in Hollywood at least) where women are either Young and Attractive or Aged and Wise, and not necessarily much room for middle aged women.
(like, I can think of some roles on the TV and in smaller cinema, but not so much hollywood blockbusters)
OMGOMGOMG, they were totes in an adorable rom-com together in the early ’90s called “Only You” and it is one of my fave rom-coms that is still somewhat feminist, so seeing them together and flirting was like them reuniting and I squeed a lot at that!
I LOVE THAT MOVIE. Even if he does give her a fake name so she’ll go out with him, that’s kind of gross.
YES! It’s one of the only rom-coms I can still stand to watch nowadays. Like I mentioned in another comment below, the stalkery/lying part is only creepy and gross if you don’t view it as merely the macguffin that gets them together in the first place. Which I do, because I loved RDJ before it was cool (#hipster) and also because Marisa Tomei is a BOSS.
Personally, I feel like since Marisa Tomei is fifty-one, she could totally conceivably have a sixteen-year-old nephew.
Anyway, I think I preferred her Aunt May to the borderline-grandmotherly version you tend to get elsewhere, where it feels like once you’re widowed and taking care of your high school nephew, you’re probably too old to be anything but some version of a vague maternal stock character.
Then again, I kind of love Marisa Tomei and want her to be in all the movies.
Sure! You could be an infant and have a 16yo nephew! And Marisa Tomei is incredibly charming! But I like wise, grandmotherly Aunt May. Plus I think there should be more roles for women who look old enough to be, you know, old, so.
Oh, I totally agree that there should be more roles for old women. I guess sometimes it feels to me like there are a handful of roles out there for old women to be wise and grandmotherly and a lot of roles out there for women to be young and attractive, but not always a whole lot in the middle.
To be entirely honest, my whole knowledge of Spiderman mostly comes from things I vaguely remember off the internet and a kind of hazy memory of the Tobey McGuire movies, so I don’t really have a strong opinion on Aunt May as a character. So I mostly just liked that she seemed like someone I could believe as being about the age I’d have no problem buying the aunt of a high schooler to be, someone who would have been in her mid-thirties or so when he was born. I guess to me she just felt like the actual women I know (or I guess even older than if she’s fifty-one) who have teenaged children/nieces/nephews. Which felt nice, because it didn’t feel like the weird Hollywood idea that seems to come up sometimes where they think any woman older than the narrow age range they need be the romantic lead should probably just be An Old Woman.
That whole thing reminded me of Anna Russell’s guide to the Ring Cycle: “She’s his Aunt, by the way.”
Marisa Tomei is 51! That is not old, certainly, but it is a reasonable age for someone who has a teen nephew
Right, I mean…I’m 37 and have a 16-year-old niece. Aunts come in all ages.
Hell, I’m 39 and have grown-up nieces and nephews (30-yr-old niece, 28-yr-old nephew, 25-yr-old niece, 19-yr-old niece).
Not only is Marisa Tomei 51, but she already starred in a romantic comedy with RDJ way back when, Only You. It’s a super stalkery creepy movie, but they are roughly the same age!
Aw, I LOVE Only You! It’s only a little creepy if you don’t choose to ignore the fact that the stalking is just the MacGuffin that gets them together (which I do, because I loved RDJ before he was cool #hipster)!
I actually really liked the casting of Marisa Tomei! It just doesn’t make a lot of sense to me that a 15 year old boy would have an aunt and uncle in their mid-80s. It seems far more reasonable to cast a woman in her 50s.
I spent this entire movie wondering why anyone let Tony be in charge of ANYTHING because he obviously makes the worst decisions ever. He made a sentient super evil robot in Ultron, and then did not learn that lesson at all.
In this movie, it felt like Tony’s personal guilt was 100% driving him to get the Avengers some supervision, because HE obviously needs a whole multinational assembly to prevent him from doing mega stupid stuff.
The entire MCU’s overarching plot at this point can be summed up as “Tony Stark Learns a Lesson, and Then He Actually Doesn’t.”
Yeah, like at the end of Iron Man 3 Tonys blows up all the suits but by the time Avengers 2 starts he’s created an entire Robo Police Squad?
“If there are enough people, maybe I’ll actually listen this time!”
Yes, Tony was totally displacing his responsibility for screwups onto the entire Avengers team so he could avoid confronting the idea that he had any personal input into things. Clearly ‘the team’ screwed up, ergo ‘the team’ needs supervision. The whole Accords are yet another way for Tony to duck responsibility while waving the ‘so responsible, such adult’ flag so he, and everyone else, can avoid trying to hold a billionaire genius responsible and go after easier targets.
I have to say, I’m less and less impressed by Tony Stark after every single movie he’s in.
You guys, this is really important: in this movie, THE ENTIRE PLOT HINGES on the fact that both Steve and Tony have to get help from people whose aunts they thought were smoking hot.
Chekov’s Aunt, if you will.
I had not at all even begun to piece this together. I just had a Keanu/Neo “Whoa” moment. Thank you.
I keep trying to work this into an Antman joke (AUNTMAN) but it isn’t going well.
I still laughed loud enough to be glad my boss isn’t in the office yet.
“people whose aunts they thought were smoking hot.”
Misreading this as “people whose aunts they thought were smoking pot” makes it even funnier.
I choose to believe that Peggy indulged once in a while during the 60s/70s.
I only regret that Peggy never got to peg Steve.
Is this the appropriate time to share my theory that Mr. and Mrs. Jarvis, upon moving to LA, fell in with the more bohemian vibe of Hollywood and opened up their marriage? And Peggy definitely got in on that?
Because that is my theory and I’m sticking to it.
The whole movie could have been averted with a halfway decent PR team.
Also re the horrible kiss that shouldn’t have happened, I choose to believe that Steve is never going to not kiss someone if the opportunity presents itself just in case he flies a plane into the arctic immediately afterward.
lol @ opportunistic Steve. God knows he probably hasn’t made it to like second base yet, so get what you can, Steve.
…which he kinda does! hey hey!
Was anyone else confused how a single Slobobvian guy could pull off this massive series of terrorist attacks/heists/espionage-ing without any help from anyone? Not even like, old war buddies, or other disillusioned Skokokovians or anything. Just him. Just the one dude.
Aha just finished my own ranting comment where I made EXACTLY THIS POINT. They never give any reason for why this dude is just so uhmazing that he handily outfoxes an entire world full of intelligence agents and super heroes. Like, was Sockhopokovia one claim to fame being home to the world’s greatest spies?
Right? There was just one throwaway picture of him in uniform and a line like, “Oh yes, he was one of the Sgts. in the Sjonovian Special Forces back in 2008.” Like, okay? He looks more like a 2nd chair cellist in the Skandistallian Army Orchestra, but okay.
They called him the Yo-Yo Ma of PSYOP.
YES! Just super creepy cellist like:
Just googled ‘eva green haunting deadeyed cellist’ to figure out what movie that is and when that didn’t yield helpful results I did a double-take and was like… oh. That is clearly Emily Blunt.
*googles ’emily blunt haunting deadeyed cellist’*
brb, changing all of my bios to “haunting deadeyed cellist.”
OMG I am just dying here because of all of the Slophovia references.
Easily the most fun thing about this article for me.
ETA: Still laughing at @zachariahary’s “Sockhopokovia.”
I’m assuming they’re building in a long plot for Baron Zemo who has a long history of crazy Nazi evil in the comics? But you know, without any of that crazy actual comics history (who doesn’t love a villain driven mad by having his cloth face mask permanently glued to his face in World War II while working with the Masters of Evil and the Red Skull?!)?! It honestly feels like the GI Joe movie where JGL seemed like he was Dr Mindbender the whole movie but then was magically Cobra Commander at the end? Just me on this one?
No, not really.
Nothing he does requires super great timing (he clearly has backup plans for everything, and in fact switches to one of them at the beginning of the movie). Nothing he does requires resources other than some money for travel, which he could either be stealing or have in his savings account. He’s spent years planning everything.
Years? How long has it been since Sokovia got smashed up, in universe? I wouldn’t have thought more than a year or so.
I thought it was at least a couple of years?
Even a single year would be enough if this op is all you do, though. Zemo’s already got a lot of hitman / special ops experience and contacts. After that it’s mostly a matter of finding institutional weaknesses (and the UN is basically one huge institutional weakness – Tony, why would you ever trust the UN to be a restraining force? They’re so corrupt! /rant) and setting up backup plans so that every outcome is a win for you.
Clearly we should watch the movie again so that we can figure out the timing better. 🙂
So I think both Steve and Tony are wrong, but in ways that make sense for each of them.
Tony is dealing with the repercussions of his unchecked actions. He’s afraid of what he can do, despite his own best intentions, and wants someone else in charge / responsible.
Steve found out that he has been working for freaking Hydra when he thought he was Doing Good. He has an understandable concern about being used again in service of sketchy agendas.
My sympathies ended up strongly with Steve because of what we saw elsewhere: Martin Freeman laughing off the idea of a lawyer, the freaking secret superhero prison in the ocean. And none of that was done by Hydra or another Evil Organization. That was the U.N.
Superhero oversight is really a good idea in theory. But in practice? Secret prisons.
You have good and correct opinions.
You’re assuming that the UN isn’t run by Hydra, which isn’t something I’d count on, given how thoroughly Hydra took over S.H.I.E.L.D. Other than that you are entirely correct.
Oh, they could be, although we’ve seen no evidence of it. But my point is that organizations don’t have to be infiltrated by Official Baddies in order for them to take people’s rights away and all.
In the real world, I would totally agree with you. But I think the MCU tends towards comic book morality, so I suspect that most organizations we see doing Bad Things will eventually be revealed to be corrupted by Bad Guys.
Heck, even Stark Industries needed to have Obadiah Stane pushing the weapons side of the business, rather than Tony having just made some bad decisions in the past.
What I’m hoping is that MCU *will* roll around towards comic books morality, specifically in that the Avengers in the comics do actually work with the UN security council and agree to operate along specific procedures, jurisdictions, and requirements that they’ve outlined. All of which seem pretty reasonable and crafted for the protection of all, rather than like.. shady secret nazi world governments out to Winter Soldier the Avengers themselves.
I just hope they get around to either revealing or ultimately cooperatively crafting the Sokovia Accords into some version of this. With both sides of CACW being wrong for the right reasons, it’d be pretty disappointing if in the end it just came down to ‘nope, just the one’s definitely right, never trust systems of governance and don’t attempt to compromise!’ -___-
Slightly out of left field theory: Cast Martin Freeman as an underused/not terribly threatening UN employee/psychiatrist, infuriate Martin Freeman fans around the world, and then reveal him to be HYDRA AF in the next Avengers film?
Yes I want this.
Yes to all of this. I’m not particularly pleased by the idea of superheroes running amok, but when it comes down it it I am far more likely to place my trust in Sam Wilson/T’Challa/Steve Rogers being good people than I am in ANY government/organization, even without there being secret Hydra people everywhere.
Yep, pretty much this.
Oh my god I’m so happy I’m not the only one that was very “Hey man Tony has some good points” from, like, start to finish. AND YOU APOLOGIZE ABOUT DEAD PARENTS IMMEDIATELY. IMMEEEEEDIATELY.
Instead he just stands there like, “Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Her neck was really crunchy.” And even worse, Steve isn’t bothered by it, either! Not even a, “Goddamn it, Buck. Really? Fuck. Sorry, Tony; this really sucks.”
I desperately wanted Steve to say to Bucky at that moment, “Look: obviously I love you and all, but you’re on your own with this one.”
I obviously know this will not be the case (and am glad for it) but I was just tickled to imagine that Nicole’s last contribution to The Toast was the phrase “gauche interiors and gaudy wet bars.”
Beyond the frustration that, my dudes, if y’all had talked this through for like five more minutes TOPS 90% of the conflict in this movie could have been avoided, I was super confused with the govs examples of why The Avengers need to be put in check. When the US is trying to justify military interventions it always tries to frame the issues at stake as existential threats and how going in is utterly necessary for the Great Good of Everyone, which is 99% nonsense, but guys. Guys, these are the legit shit-hitting-the-existential-menace-fan situations that DOD press people must have wet dreams about. Like, yay lets have a critique of American interventionism in our comic book movies, but uh, like three out of four of your examples are literally world ending events . Neoimperialism = bad; stopping aliens from eating everyone’s faces = good.
Also, the bad guy. Like straight up every world government and their most elite personnel are totally outmatched by this one Sokovian ex-military dude on a revenge binge? Isn’t this like a lone Macedonian intelligence officer bringing NATO to its knees cuz a super angsty robot tied a bunch of rockets to Skopje and tried to blast it into the stratosphere?
(Why are all the baddies in action movies lately obsessed with dropping heavy shit from high up to destroy the world? Like that GI Joe movie or the Independence Day trailer where it looks like they throw the Burg Khalifa at London. Did we build all these nukes for nothing?)
Right, and two of the Previously On: The Avengers Franchise clips they used as examples were from sequences where the Avengers were explicitly shown helping with the evacuation of civilians and trying to find ways to minimize collateral damage! Like, the non-Avengers-based governmental response to the Chitauri attack in the first Avengers movie was to DETONATE A NUCLEAR BOMB IN NEW YORK, but the problem here is that the Avengers are too careless about collateral damage and need to be restrained by… the guys who were like “whatev let’s just nuke it and call it a day”?
ahah SO TRUE. My other fave part about that plan is that literally all they had to do to end the whole monster invasion shebang was, instead of nuking their own damn city, nuke the stupid monster ship. Whoever was making the what-to-vaporize decisions on that particular day went, ‘huh they’re coming out of that big hole in the sky… so we should aim at… the Chrysler building or…?’
Yes! They need someone whose job it is to be all, “remember how you were grateful that New York wasn’t nuked” and “Wanda did the best she could to get that bomb guy away from civilians, it wasn’t perfect, but if he’d detonated on the ground hundreds more people would have been dead.”
This PR role is admirably filled by Darcy Lewis in many fanfics and it just makes sense.
Yeah also, come to think of it, the Avengers spend a lot of time in this movie sitting around telling each other how sorry they are that they can’t always save everybody, but I don’t get the impression that they have ever said that to the wider world, or to the people whose loved ones they couldn’t save, or anything like that. That seems like a thing they should do, maybe.
That’s our job?
On point.
Like, here’s the thing, I am in favor of superhero oversight! The Avengers are basically somewhere between “law enforcement” and “military personnel”; they should be accountable for their actions in the same way those groups should be. But the arguments the movie actually presents in favor of the Accords are basically stupid, possibly because every time they wrote something more sensible someone said “Wait, why would Captain America object to this?” and they had to cross it out and start over.
My biggest issue about that scene was that they had highlighted Adelaide, Australia, as an ‘event’ but we didn’t get to see it. WHAT DID THEY DO TO ADELAIDE?!
Wait, they did something to us?! We were in a movie??!
They had the map up with ‘here’s where y’all fucked up’ and I swear Adelaide was highlighted. So, sorry guys. You got Avenger’d
Must’ve been targeting our state of the art submarine building facilities!
Adelaide: we exist, apparently!
Yeah -like the choices you have been given are “Sign or quit Heroing” but maybe, I don’t know, say “We want to have a say in this agreement”? Or demand to have a representative on the council (and make it be Tony because he annoys people till they give in)? So many other options!
I think it should be Steve, because he’s constitutionally incapable of backing down, and is less likely to be distracted by a passing whiskey bottle.
I don’t think talking would have solved anything, though – Tony and Steve were diametrically opposed for philosophical reasons, that’s not really something talking solves.
Also, the UN was the one forcing the timing on this. Tony apparently used up all his political capitol fighting this and didn’t have enough sway to delay the signing. Which, bad planning Tony, but that’s practically his motto so it’s an in-character thing for him to screwup.
Okay, well, so my main experience of this film is that we bought tickets very last-minute, and the only seats left in the theater were in the VERY FRONT ROW, and it was in 3D, and oh boy, guys 3D films do not work from that angle.
You know how already with superhero films you get people looking like their heads are tiny while their bodies are super buff?? This just exacerbated that, to truly ridiculous levels. TINY TINY HEADS on GIGANTIC BODIES, and all of the other proportions were off as well, I couldn’t take anything seriously the entire time.
Ha, we had the opposite experience at Star Wars: TFA, where we were in the second row back from the screen but all the way off to the right side, and from that angle the 3D glasses distorted everyone’s heads so they looked totally huge and elongated, like their foreheads were trying to creep up to the top left of the screen and escape that way.
My partner and I have avoided all 3D movies ever since, and specifically got tickets to Civil War at a weird time in a weird location so we could see the 2D version.
The same thing happened to me! And everyone was talking about how great the fight scene at the airport was, but all I got was incomprehensible blurs.
yeah, mostly what I got from the airport scene was a headache
but Bucky is just like “yeah I will gladly accept your help in beating up the world to save me from consequences”
I mean… that would be my attitude if I were in that situation
or any situation in which there was the slightest risk of me getting into trouble/Yelled At and someone was willing to go to perhaps disproportionate lengths to help me avoid that
i wish bucky had any sort of personality at all in this movie, bc a canon Dirtbag Bucky Barnes would be fantastic
you try having a personality when you’re constantly getting your brain wiped by Nazis tho
Y’know, I don’t get why people think he didn’t have a personality in this movie? I really thought he did, it was just one very obviously affected by massive trauma that led him to be less than expressive.
Yes, this so much.
Bucky and Steve were both clearly themselves, just also clearly their selves were traumatized and also from the 40s when long emotional conversations were not a thing.
BUT WHAT ABOUT NEIGHBORS 2 NICOLE
I legitimately enjoyed Neighbours 2 more than Captain America. I don’t know if that says more about me, or more about Marvel, tbh.
OK but I feel it’s relevant to everyone’s interest is not only do the the witch and the robot have magic boy twins, but one of these twins is gay and dates a guy who looks like Steve Rogers
And this is why I gave up on comics a long time ago. Because if I want to read that kind of craziness, fanfic has got it for free.
There’s a lot to unpack there.
After careful consideration, my favorite line is Nicole channeling her inner 1940s grandma with “just a hot, hot fella”
Am I the ONLY person who was skeeved out by the Scarlet Witch/Vision dynamic? Like Vision was SUCH a DAD for 95% of it but then the other 5% was romantic and I couldn’t remember how old she was supposed to be but Steve definitely calls her a kid at some point, and Vision was definitely babysitting her and wearing SWEATER VESTS and talking in Paul Bettany’s voice and I really did not care for it at all.
Anytime Paul Bettany is in anything, I automatically assume that his character is essentially Dr. Maturin from Master and Commander.
And I am always on board for that.
He’ll always be Geoff Chaucer in my heart…
Dumb tangent: that spelling of Jeff makes me want to pronounce it like someone with a Dick van Dyke style cockney accept telling someone to “get off.”
I was totally creeped out by their weird chemistry! But he’s kinda just creepy in general?
I liked that they kept his dorky fashion straight from the comics. It’s a testament to my love of SW/V that I wasn’t creeped out because I haaaaate the Elizabeth Olson casting (whitewashing! terrible accent! she’s basically a sentient jar of mayonnaise). Also Wanda is effing plagued by paternalistic figures during all of her comic appearances (until her current solo series!!!) so it did feel real to that
Wanda Maximoff was whitewashed? I thought in the comic books, she and Quicksilver were Magneto’s kids so still white? The accent is *heinous* though
In the comics they’re Roma and Jewish. In terms of Hollywood whitewashing it’s not as egregious as other instances, but still hugely disappointing for a lot of Maximoff fans. Not that all people from either of those groups look all alike, but her background and heritage is important to her character in the books and it could have been a neat way to have added diversity (not another blonde white girl) and to ameliorate some of the super-uncomfortable exoticizing and stereotyping around the character in the comics.
http://www.thewire.com/national/2013/10/avengers-…
Aw man, that’s really shitty! I can’t even think of a time I’ve seen a Roma character in a movie let alone a Roma superhero in big blockbuster
But her origins in the movie had to be changed because she and Quicksilver can’t be Magneto’s kids or mutants. Also, the Roma origins in the comics were super stereotyped. I have very mixed feelings about it all. (and it didn’t help that the general fandom stuff I saw in the Avengers lumped in Aaron Taylor-Johnson with Elizabeth Olson as problematic casting even though Aaron Taylor-Johnson both is Ashenazi Jewish and has fairly typical Ashkenazi features, which made the complaints feel less sincere than they otherwise may have.)
I think I would be skeeved out if Paul Bettany weren’t a robot. An actual mid-40s man being interested in Wanda would be gross and sketchy, but a robot who’s had a body for like a year being played by a mid-40s man is less skeevy.
Their relationship is otherworldly. They’re both connected to a larger interpretation of reality. Wanda accesses it through her magics, Vision through his tech and other powers. In this way they are equals. But I think it didn’t throw me off because I love a lot of their relationship in the comics. Also, Wanda is older in the comics, like by at least fifteen years, and their relationships doesn’t occur immediately after her interacting with the Avengers.
No, you are not! Vision was 100% a paternalistic creeper and I was so, so glad when she literally buried him.
*Ahem* [morphs into internet-comic-canon person no one likes] Viz and Wanda had two babies! Twins! Who were a manifestation of Mephisto’s soul! And it was very traumatic for her when she realized they weren’t really real! But- the soul fragments that were in those twins went into two separate babies (who have powers suspiciously like Scarlet Witch & Quicksilver) and those kids became kinda friends and joined the Young Avengers which was an awesome comic.
tl;dr: Wanda & Vision’s marriage/ twins are complicated but wonderful because all the casual, at home panels in the comics warm my cold, dark heart.
(not exactly how babies are made)
I am overwhelmed by Vision’s dad jeans
He is such a dad. Much dad fashion. Very wow.
Random fact: Doctor Strange delivered their babies.
This is cute!
She was raised by a sentient cow-person so it’s not like her childhood was super normal either though…
I….
wut?
Technically, I believe she was only delivered by Bova, not raised.
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabas…
Wiccan! Wiccan and Teddy and Ms. America and Kate “The Real, Best Hawkeye” Bishop and Kid Loki and Stature and Patriot…aw man, I loved the Young Avengers.
When my kids asked why Pepper and Wasp weren’t in the movie, I told them the budget wasn’t big enough.
Also because they are both far too sensible for any of this shit.
Very, very true
Oh god the entire movie would have just stopped 15 minutes in. Everything would have been sorted out.
I get the schtick of the movie yelling series, but I’m never going to understand the people (comments here, all over the world elsewhere) who complain about convoluted plots in movies, or how an action movie could avoid all the action if they just sat down and talked for a while, or how Batman could do more good donating money to orphanages or whatever. Like, is this an honest position? Do you really want to see three hours of Christian Bale reviewing form 990s and grant requests? Just push your suspension of disbelief the weeest bit farther, y’know?
A. Yelling about movies is a lot of fun, it is like 60% of where my enjoyment of a movie comes from
B. ABSOLUTELY I want to see three hours of Christian Bale reviewing for 990s and grant requests
From what I recall, much of Bale’s performance in The Big Short is him just looking at paperwork and number-crunching, angstily.
And that movie was terrible.
ALSO had terrible wigs.
Oh, bosh to you! They are not asking for three hours of filling out forms, they are asking for a plot that does not hinge quite so much on people behaving like non-people; they are asking for action sequences that feel slightly more grounded and earned. Double bosh to your disingenuousness!
Bosh, fie and damn his duck-pond!
Meh. People make convoluted, silly choices and crazy coincidences happen all the time in real life. And the action sequences felt extremely grounded, at least in the context of a world where steroids turn people into superheros/giant rage monsters and Elon Musk built a flying suit of robo-death armor. Double bosh me all you want, but it’s a silly critique of fiction in general and superhero movies in particular.
I honestly and sincerely want a Marvel movie where they all, but especially Tony Stark, talk to a goddamn therapist.
No, Tony, writing an AI therapist and talking to it does not count.
Isn’t that basically what he did in this movie, in the weirdest, most awkward (and weirdly/out-of-character-ly public) flashback ever?
Yeah. And I think he tried it once before, with just talking to an AI, though I can’t find any references to it so maybe I’ve misremembered something.
I DID NOT UNDERSTAND WHY THAT WAS THE DEMO HE WENT WITH. Really Tony, all these people do not need to watch you process your teenage dirtbag angst.
It was the demo he went with because plot foreshadowing (he’s still not over his parents’ death and abandonment of him), but it really didn’t make sense that someone who covers up any real feelings with snark and alcohol would publicly show that as the prime example of his fancy new toy.
My #2 complaint about the MCU in general is them making people do stuff TOTALLY OUT OF CHARACTER because it was the easiest way to advance the plot, so yeah.
#1 complaint, obviously, is WHERE THE ^%&#*@ ARE ALL THE WOMEN??
But, but, but … Black Widow was like soooo important in all the movies she was in, why would she need her own? And Peggy Carter got her own show and Maria Hill and Sharon Carter exist and Hope van Dyne will be Wasp eventually and Captain Marvel will get her own movie in Phase 4 or 10. What more do you crazy feminists WANT?
A neighbor child was telling me that Black Widow is her favorite Avenger, and then got this resigned look on her face and said “because she’s the only girl.” Then she added “and I like spies and stuff,” but with a shrug, so you knew that she was still aware that when she and her friends played Avengers, she had to be The Girl One.
Theory: It was the most recent showy thing he’d done, and he wasn’t willing to admit to himself that he didn’t want to show it in public due to feelings, because admitting that to himself would require leaving a feeling uncovered.
He did what? Oh my god. Oh my god
LOL, yeah, so Tony’s intro in this movie (SPOILERS, BTW!!) is:
.
.
.
.
.
What we’re meant to think is a flashback to the last time he talked with his parents before they died (complete with Young!Tony dickery and Old!Howard terrible-fatherness), but actually turns out to be an elaborate AI/invention thingy where he can relive and “fix” his memory so he actually said what he wishes he’d said lo, so many years ago. It keeps with the recent MCU theme of “Let’s use CGI to make our old actors look (very convincingly!) younger just because we can” that it started in Antman.
And yeah, he’s demo-ing it in front of like a ton of MIT students (as a former MIT student, I lol’ed a lot at that scene, but that’s neither here nor there) to show off his latest invention of, you know, “fix-it sort-of but not really” therapy or something.
OH MY GOD.
i’m going to die of secondhand embarrassment just imagining that
Pretty much, yeah.
BUILDING A THERAPIST IN YOUR GARAGE DOES NOT COUNT.
The after credits scene in Iron Man 3 has Tony talking to acting therapist Bruce Banner. They play it off as a joke but it’s something.
Man, Avengers group therapy would be wild. I imagine it would be like that S7(?) episode of Gilmore Girls where they’re all yelling at each other and finally talking about all the shit they’re been avoiding for years.
At least Tony was able to talk to someone, and someone was listening to him, right?
I don’t need to watch a movie about a superhero donating money to orphanages, but I do want to have an understanding of why the hero is choosing to kick people in the face instead. If no one works through that then it just feels like “philanthropy and diplomacy are vaguely nice ideas but violence is awesome” and I come away feeling kinda sick to my stomach.
A plot shouldn’t rely on people being stupid and stubborn to make things happen. We get enough of that in real life.
I wrote a very, very long comment, but I’ll boil it down to this:
1. Convoluted plots can be done really well, but this movie was not an example of that. A lot of the plot points were sloppy and not well established (see: the entire villain arc?? honestly, wtf happened there??? please someone tell me). The fact that people do sloppy baseless things in real life doesn’t really make up for that; I don’t have to pay $10 to watch real life. I expect a story when I pay for a story.
2. I think the complaint that they could have avoided the action if they sat down and talked comes directly from the messy, convoluted plot. If the premise didn’t hold up so poorly to scrutiny, then a few minutes of the characters discussing the Accords and/or Bucky and trying to compromise wouldn’t mean the end of the movie, it would just better establish their motivations to beat up the people they were friends with 5 minutes before. The way it was presented made their conflict feel toothless.
3. I resent the idea that movies–especially those with huge budgets and huge audiences–should be given some suspension of disbelief pass. If the movie didn’t draw me in enough to forget the inconsistencies, that’s sorta the movie’s fault. That’s, like, the entire job of the movie. I thought Civil War was fun and entertaining, but that doesn’t mean it’s immune to criticism where it falls short.
4. Batman absolutely could do more good if he donated his money to charity.
I’m sure Daniel Bruhl is a nice person, but he looks just enough like a discount Jonathan Crombie (RIP) that it made me sad and therefore I was not sad about his dead family.
I thought he looked like a Payless Tobey Maguire, and maybe it was some sort of in-joke about Spider-Man?? IDK.
Oh my god, he totally does! No wonder I thought he looked so familiar.
!! I spent the whole movie wondering what else I’d seen him in.
(If you imagine them as Anne and Uncle Matthew, does that help you feel sad?)
YOU MONSTER
Wow this just confirmed that my decision to quit Marvel movies cold turkey was the correct one. I am here for human-robot superhero chemistry but the rest of this sounds like Toxic Masculinity: All This Would Be Solved If We Just Apologized And Talked It Out: The Movie.
But wait how did the movie end, are the superheros still Civil Warring? Or do they figure something out? Ohh wait is this why the next Avengers is called Infinity War? Is the official Avengers canon now Avengers 1, Caps 2-3, Avengers 3? Does anyone want to talk about Iron Man 3, because I actually really liked that one?
i was talking with my friend about how IMPOSSIBLE this movie would be if the two leads were women, y’know? I feel like I can just about imagine an Iron Man movie or a Captain America movie that stars Antonia Stark or Stephanie Rogers or whatever, Hollywood can occasionally bustle out a Strong Female Lead under extreme duress, sometimes. Like I can see how both hypothetical movie would be “daring” ones for having female protagonists, and the plot wouldn’t have to be much different.
…but I cannot even imagine a women-led Civil War movie, at all. It’s so beyond anything that pop culture would ever accept. Three hours and hundreds of millions about two women arguing? My god. Kinda depressing how far women’s rights have to go, or how much work it’ll take before men will take us seriously, no questions asked.
Captain America destroyed the heart engine of Tony’s robo-suit and then Tony was like “YOU SO DO NOT DESERVE TO BE PROM QUEEN!” so Cap left his shield behind and then broke all of the superheros out of Azkaban and wrote Tony a letter like “Sorry about the thing with your parents, I was just trying to protect your feelings bb. P.S. I believe we will be friends again someday. Love, Cap” and Tony smiled wryly (I think, I honestly don’t remember, but I feel like he probably did).
There is an awkard detente, but Team Cap is still v much out of the good graces of the world.
And no, I’m pretty sure Infinity Wars is something else entirely. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Iron Man 3 was great. More babysitting Tony please.
Infinity Wars is when Thanos shows up and is like, “I have a crush on Death (like the literal embodiment of Death) and as a token of my love I’m going to destroy everything,” and all the Marvel heroes are like, “No???”
Ohh, I was wondering when they were going to pick that thread up from the post-credits scene in the Avengers.
The earliest they could get back into that is with Dr. Strange (which I am not really looking forward to, as an aside); thanks to his powers he can serve as a natural bridge between Earthbound Marvel stuff and the more quirky Cosmic Marvel stuff. Guardians 2 comes out right afterwards, which strengthens my suspicion that Dr. Strange will deal with Thanos to some extent, or at least with the Infinity Gems.
That’s the one.
This is the comment where I really went “oh man I’m going to miss the Toast comments” (so much that I logged in to say that out loud).
Latest news is the writers have decided “Infinity War” doesn’t fit what they’ve written, so they’ll be giving both films new names. Apparently they also said the two films will be very different in tone and theme. Still involves Thanos, though, since Brolin’s under contract for it.
Wait whaaaat? But they’ve already got the infinity gems and the gauntlet??
And Bruce listening in the background. I loved that.
I will say that Bucky’s reactions were the one part of the movie that I actually did really like. Idk, it made sense to me that his memories are coming back and he’s able to remember who he is, but his emotions are still on ice. imo he’s not sullen, he’s just blank. He doesn’t seem to definitively CARE about anything the entire film, stuff just happens to him and he follows Steve’s lead from the start. He’s very clearly not the Bucky of the first movie, and if you’re creating a super-assassin, wouldn’t HYDRA want to remove any sort of conscience and ability to feel remorse right off the bat? So he’s had his brains&soul scrambled repeatedly for the last 70 years AND for all that time he’s been treated by everyone around him as a weapon, an object.
I think it’s pretty plausible that his entire emotional life (including the social awareness of things like “express remorse to those affected by your actions before they try to kill you”) is buried too far under for him to access, whether due to HYDRA tampering or just as a coping mechanism once his memories start to return. Steve can get through to him some of the time, but it seemed to me like he almost entirely still acts as a weapon to be used by other people. And why would an object think to apologize?
This is a very good read of Bucky, I feel. And does explain why he seems so strangely hapless, unless he is having to fight.
This this this!
I very much get the impression that Bucky just wants everyone to leave him alone so he can deal with his feelings privately and without having to worry about people trying to kill him/trying to make him kill people. I think he definitely has feelings (his “oh shit” reaction when he remembers the other winter soldiers, the “But I still did them” moment with Steve etc.) but he just really isn’t ready to talk about them with other people yet.
HE JUST WANTS TO EAT HIS PLUMS
They’re so sweet and so golden.
I was so excited to read this post and the comments and y’all didn’t disappoint. I feel like I could send this to some of my RL friends to get a better idea of where my priorities and head is 99.999% of the time.
I wish this had been a writing prompt back when I was in school:
MALLORY: I hope Tony never forgives anyone and rebuilds the entire world in his own image
I hope Tony goes full Randian
and just murders everybody for being unworthy of him
…
I’m 100% pro-Tony doing what works for him
all I want is happiness for Tony
Because that is how you get a room full of undergrads engaged.
I just want to know why Steve, upon deciding he needed to bring Bucky in for reasons that were plausible and legit (photo evidence at scene of crime), did not a) capture Bucky, b) make sure he was safely ensconced in prison for c) the two days it took to find evidence it was not Bucky at which point d) they have a discussion with everyone when Bucky can go “look, I know I am not safe, put me in cryo somewhere secret and secure until we can figure out how to break this mind stuff.” It seems like it would be a satisfactory solution for everyone?
Also, there were SO MANY opportunities to tell Black Panther that Bucky didn’t kill his dad before Bucky actually tells him. There’s a fraught pause when Steve is just staring at him (before fighting, or in between fights idk) and it would be PLENTY of time to say to this reasonable man, “But it wasn’t Bucky! He was framed!” and he just SAYS NOTHING and licks his lips or whatever in preparation of an ass-kicking. UNNECESSARY. PLOT CONTRIVANCE. BS.
(None of this is a comment against the Black Panther, who was not at fault.)
Yes! To be honest, I think most of the complaints here have been people nitpicking/personal taste, not paying attention to established characterization, or not paying attention to what’s happening. But this one is legitimate. Steve should have said something re: obvious setup to Tony earlier, but he never tried to explain it to T’Challa at all!
Tony should just make all these points while shooting and making three-point-basket after three-point-basket on a basketball court, over and over again, and then finish his argument with “Swish, motherfuckers.”
I agree with a lot of this, except there wasn’t enough Sam Wilson. (There’s never enough Sam Wilson.)
Cap has a lot more chemistry with EVERYONE in Captain America: The Winter Soldier!
Also, it’s super weird discussing this movie’s use of diplomacy and checks as someone who did her master’s in it. I’ve already ranted to a couple friends at length at my annoyance at Tony. It’s like, oh now you care about other countries?? When a woman talks about an American who died doing good work, THEN you have enough to care, you damn imperialist?! It’s really something when it seems like he couldn’t give a rat’s ass about the rest of the world’s suffering before that. This is partly why it was REALLY GOOD they had Black Panther, because fucking hell, I couldn’t watch a bunch of white guys have a tiff and then destroy developing and/or non-Western nations (Wakanda, Nigeria, Sokovia, South Korea) to “solve” it.
It sucks because I liked Tony until Age of Ultron and then I was like “how come when you have anxious feelings about the world EVERYONE ON EARTH HAS TO PAY FOR IT?!” And every time someone is like “lol Tony is right though” for this movie I’m like, bitch, show me where in the movie he makes an informed, empathetic decision and I’ll show you why the UN is so disappointing in the real world. It’s not like Cap is right necessarily — they need to respect SOME LEVEL of national sovereignty — but what’s wrong with NGO status at least, oh my God.
Oh man. Okay. Okay, I gotta go take a walk. Deep breaths, Sulagna.
oh, I really like the idea of the Avengers operating as an NGO
A+ rant, thank you
Yes to all of this! And Sam Wilson is a literal saint and the best forever.
Also I think Sam and Bucky had enough chemistry with each other to make up for any chemistry Cap is missing with everyone else.
Seriously. I mean, I get what people are saying about the “no homo” kiss and all, but Steve’s two besties, one from the ’40s and one from the present, nodding in approval and encouragement that shy Steve finally made a move (as forced as it was) was my favorite moment in the whole movie.
In my dream world, that same moment happened with Sam and Bucky either being kissed or bro-nodding from the car.
Avengers NGO is perfect.
I really do think T’Challa was the only actual grownup in the movie.
And Natasha, who hugged Steve when he said he wasn’t gonna sign and reassessed and revised her opinions and actions based on new information and then had the good sense to just fuckin’ walk away from I Make Bad Life Decisions Stark when he lays into her for, you know, behaving like an adult.
Fuck off, Tony.
Out of curiosity, what was the new information that led her to revise her opinions/actions? I’ve only seen it once, but it seemed that all she had was the realization that Steve wasn’t planning on stopping, which seems less a reassessment of good information and more “well this guy is more stubborn than me..”
I mean it certainly wasn’t the new information like the stuff that Tony eventually found out (and found out on his own, because Steve/Sam decided not to tell him any of that ahead of time) that led HIM to reassess and revise his opinions and actions, leading to him finally swallowing his ego and joining Steve as a friend to help…
Though he kind of sidesteps the whole “should enhanced individuals be subject to governmental oversight” by going “enhanced individuals ARE the government”
But because it is him, I’m kind of okay with it?
Which has all kinds of other problems, because a genetically enhanced eternal absolute monarchy is more than a little bit fucked up. (The fact that TNC’s Black Panther run right now is about grappling with this is making me very happy.)
I am unfamiliar with the comic books, but is it traditional for Black Panther and King to be overlapping roles? From the movie I got the impression that they were supposed to be separate, but the King’s unexpected death resulted in someone accidentally holding both positions at once.
Yeah, in the comics the positions are the same; the Black Panther is the king and the king is the Black Panther.
That seems like extremely poor planning to have your king running off and risking his life all the time, even without any sort of moral quandary about the ethics of having a superhero king.
Traditionally, the king didn’t gallivant around superheroing. T’Challa’s gotten yelled at a few times for doing that, and it was part of the reason he lost the kingship for a while in the comics.
This is definitely making me want to read the comics
You definitely should! Now is actually a pretty good time to jump into Black Panther; like I mentioned above, Ta-Nehisi Coates just started an 11 issue run on the character that is excellent so far. You can find a preview here. T’Challa’s been a big part of some recent events, so between that and the movies, he’s getting a lot of (very deserved and belated) shine right now.
Well, and I also oppose monarchy.
I still think he’s the most mature and sensible person in the group, though. (Natasha is up there, yes.)
And every time someone is like “lol Tony is right though” for this movie I’m like, bitch, show me where in the movie he makes an informed, empathetic decision and I’ll show you why the UN is so disappointing in the real world.
All of this! Hear hear! I wish I could like this a flobbity-jillion times! I ranted about it below, but I don’t get how anyone could side with Tony in this movie.
Comments like this are the reason that r/ToastCrumbs is going to be vitally necessary.
What? Where?
<a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/ToastCrumbs/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ToastCrumbs/<br />
I’m now a redditor. I’m not entirely comfortable with this.
It’s funny to me because on the other hand, we’ve got Steve Rogers as an out-and-out unilateralist neoconservative. “We’ve got hella bombs and bomb detonations are real bad but… what if we had to use them and couldn’t?” Which is the entire argument against defense spending (or domestic gun ownership, lol) in the first place, that the existence of toys demands play (an argument voiced by Paul Bettany’s bad Data impression).
Cap’s line is “we need to use our bombs, and then later on if it turns out we fucked up, we’ll feel sad but know we did it for the right reasons.” He’s a Clintonite Democrat, basically. The dirty secret of superhero film is that the fantasy of ever-present existential threats that require overwhelming violence to defeat is a fantasy that everyone in the real world lives in and has to deal with. There’s a good argument to be made that the superhero movie glut was enabled directly by 9/11, and the Captain America movies are probably the least subtle in terms of direct descendants. None of the political allegory works, it ends up being perverse.
I think Steve is more going ‘governments getting involved mean horrible things happen on purpose, at least if we’re making the decisions we know horrible things will only be happening by accident’. Remember, Steve has seen a lot of horrible (from his perspective) government decisions – there’s several in every movie he’s in – and not a whole lot of good ones. Given his history, refusing to put a notoriously corrupt organization like the UN in charge of his workplace is actually a good idea.
Tony embraces the Accords because they’re a way for him to dodge his guilt over his personal screwups which the team had to clean up, so it’s not like he’s being particularly rational or a good political allegory either.
I know this is kind of OT, but is there a post-Toast future where we’re all on one big text chain/gchat watching movies together? I’d really like this. (Particularly if we could expand the definition of “watching movies” to include “talking about Miss Fisher and advocating for Season 4”.) Thank you, love you guys.
Join us on Slack. We’ve already got a Jupiter Ascending watchalong planned.
1. What is Slack 2. How do you join the Toast group.
Slack is a sort of chat platform that a bunch of toasts are on now, and it is a death sentence for your productivity and your celly’s battery life, if you are me.
I don’t want to post the admin’s email address without her permission, but you can email me at ilikeitinhere at gmail dot com, and I will, uh, email you her email.
Actually you can just email ppyajunebug at gmail dot com and she’ll invite you.
…we do?????
Check the movies channel!
THERE ISN’T GONNA BE A MISS FISHER SEASON 4?!
WHYYYYYYY NOOOOOO
i had not heard
noooooooooooo
:((
I looked it up, and they’re planning a Miss Fisher movie (still in script writing phase) which they will delay starting until after Essie Davis is finished with Game of Thrones and other roles she’s gotten after the unexpected success of The Babadook (which sounds like it’ll be delayed until fan interest has lapsed) and then after THAT the plan on doing Season 4.
So the show is effectively dead, yeah
My only hope at this point is that they’ll unfreeze Bucky for another movie and give him his redemption plot and emotional development he actually deserves. Also maybe a good therapist. That’s all I want.
This, a thousand times this. I have been wondering if he will feature at all in the Black Panther movie given that he was frozen in Wakanda…
Bucky is Poochie. He was either on-screen or other characters were talking about him and he had a “cool” look, END OF DISSERTATION
“Sororitity?” is still the best punchline I’ve ever seen in a trailer. I’m all in for more Rose Byrne comedies! Can’t wait for the Movie Yelling about that one.
OH AND before seeing the movie I kept seeing Tom Holland’s name thrown around as the new Spiderman, except I still dk who that is at all.
So I kept picturing Tom Hollander as Spiderman instead, and that kept me incredibly entertained for the past few weeks. You’re welcome.
ME TOO. I was very confused but intrigued?
ME TOO and I was so disappointed when it wasn’t him. Then my Mom pointed out he should be one of the Mallory Columboes instead & now I’m even sadder that that one isn’t real either.
My ideal marvel movie of any kind is one where Tony Stark is Homer Simpson in that one fantasy montage he has where hes the tallest man in the world and covered in gold.
Okay, as someone whose reaction to all the trailers was, “Why is there so much Tony Fucking Stark in my Captain America movie?” I honestly do not understand how anyone could come away from this siding with Tony.
If there was one big plot weakness, it was why no one brought up the fact that, OH HEY, we totally did have oversight, but did you forget, TONY, that it was taken over by Hydra? In real life I am definitely for government oversight, but I am NOT for people being drafted into an army against their will just because they happen to possess powers that other people do not. I am ALSO very much against the shoot-on-sight type of “justice” that was going to be employed against Bucky. In fact, I think the way the officials (CIA? UN? it was pretty unclear) reacted to Bucky’s suspected act of terror actually supported Steve’s point. I didn’t see Steve’s argument as “no, I’m a free agent, I can do what I want” as much as “I am totally against governments doing shady things in the name of safety and security and I refuse to be a part of it, especially when it involves my friend who is innocent and, while a bad dude, not completely responsible for his actions while brainwashed.”
Tony is a big fat baby in this movie, and while I GET that he lost it seeing his parents killed in front of him, most of his actions and reactions are selfish. (Hell, he even told Steve that he basically signed the accords because he thought it would do the hard part of stopping superheroing and keeping him in check for him so he didn’t have to exercise any actual self-control.) And his parting shot to Steve (“That shield isn’t even yours, it belongs to my dad!”) is childish and whiny and Steve was, as always in the Cap movies, the bigger person by dropping it and then writing him a letter after explaining things and saying he still has Tony’s back.
I hated that there was so much Tony in my Cap movie, but if there was going to be, at least Cap got to punch him a lot and end up being the bigger person.
“at least Cap got to punch him a lot and end up being the bigger person.”
I love this comment SO MUCH, especially that bit.
The Accords weren’t written as a draft, though? They were written specifically with the private paramilitary group of the Avengers in mind, saying that if they wanted to operate as active agents, they needed to involve a UN panel before charging in to whatever country they felt needed their overpowered forces. If they DIDN’T want to operate as active agents, their alternative was to retire from being an active agent (“What happens if we don’t sign?” “You retire.”) Which is pretty much the opposite of drafting someone against their will.
Like I totally agree, the events in NYC and Sokovia, that’s pretty much ‘hey, alien armies/murderbots were wrecking shit and we had to be there.’ But it’s worth noting that the apparent catalyst for the Accords was the Avengers going into a very populated city, tracking down a non-enhanced human terrorist and his group, and making a fatal mistake that–by Steve and Wanda’s own (private) admission–was their fault because one got distracted and the other was, idk pretty green still. They had time to fly to a completely different continent but not to alert local authorities/law enforcement of their information? Their plans? Maybe suggest that they get people evacuated ahead of time? I think THIS is the sort of thing the Accords were drafted to have in mind. That’s not shady, that’s asking a private paramilitary group with ridiculous powers and weapons at their disposal, and asking them to respect the global community enough to involve them in their affairs. (Is there potential for that sort of thing to turn pear shaped, for HYDRA or people with agendas to take advantage? Sure, it’s probably why T’challa said he supports the Accords but not the politics. Doesn’t mean the sort of oversight the UN is calling for isn’t valid.)
Steve is of course right to protect his friend since HE has information about Bucky’s innocence (or.. suspicions? I’d certainly hope he had something more than just ‘well he’s my friend and I value that over literally anything else’), and I’m in principle not for ‘shoot to kill’ orders (and yes, that was the CIA since Sharon mentioned it was orders within her organization). I think given what they knew of the Winter Soldier–that he was a terrifyingly enhanced assassin, had a long list of quite serious crimes in his ledger, and was very likely to kill anyone sent after him? As far as the CIA knows, ordering him to be taken alive would have been like a death sentence to the agents sent after him. And notably, once those agents catch up to Bucky and it’s *clear* he’s detained? No one shoots him. Maybe just because Captain America is with him, but who knows.
he even told Steve that he basically signed the accords because he thought it would do the hard part of stopping superheroing and keeping him in check for him so he didn’t have to exercise any actual self-control — this is not a thing that was said.
I have a different reading of the “my father made that, you’re not worthy of it” scene. Howard Stark worshiped Steve Rogers. He was, we are led to infer by the Russos, absent for a large part of Tony’s developing years BECAUSE of his search for Steve Rogers. Tony grew up raised around stories gushing about Steve Rogers. And Tony, who for 20-some years still hasn’t been able to properly process his parents’ death when he thought they just died in a tragic accident? has literally JUST found out that Steve, the man his father loved, the man that was FRIENDS with his father… knew that his father was violently assassinated, and kept that a secret from him. And was protecting his murderer. Which to Tony, made that shield a part of his father that it would be unconscionable to let him walk out with. Steve does drop it because he’s a decent man, but I think he does so knowing that that shield belongs to Stark; to be given to him when he earns it back.
LOL Except that Steve is in Wakanda right now just ROLLING IN VIBRANIUM, he doesn’t need Tony to give him the shield back, T’Challa is casually making him 30,000 different shields just for fun
They may well be playing Pogs with vibranium shields.
I mean, I understand the theoretical reasoning for the Accords. Vigilante justice with no oversight is not something I’m ever really a fan of. But it wasn’t presented as “Work with us to make sure everything on the up-and-up in the interest of civilian safety,” it was, “Join us and follow our orders or you are legally not allowed to use your powers,” which to me, while not technically a draft, is essentially one. Join us or go away was how it was presented (and perhaps that was part of the kind of rushed/forced conflict and less than stellar writing), and for someone like Steve and a lot of the powered Avengers, who have either been doing this for a long time or can’t really just “give up” their powers, I definitely see how that can feel like a difficult-to-swallow ultimatum.
I’ve only seen it once, but I specifically recall when Steve and Tony were discussing Pepper leaving, Tony saying something like, “I’m really hard to live with and can’t stop avenging, and I hoped that the Accords would make that decision for me.” I suppose it’s possible I completely imagined it, but it was during their real-talk conversation where he was explaining why he honestly thought the Accords would be a good idea and how they would affect him personally.
That’s a valid read of what Tony was thinking, and I definitely get that he was traumatized and emotionally compromised in that final battle, but I guess I never saw the shield as “belonging” to Howard. He made it, sure, but it’s not like it was particularly technologically advanced. It was just a piece of formed vibranium (which Howard did not invent or anything), and Steve was the one who asked for it. Howard created weapons for offense; Steve wanted something for defense (that could be used for offense, sure, but it’s primarily defensive). I can see why Tony would feel that symbolism, but I’ve always seen the shield as STEVE’S, and representative of who Steve was and what made Captain America so great, so seeing Tony say, “That was my father’s,” especially after he’s acknowledged that his father’s legacy is war and weapons (at least in the Iron Man movies), came off as very petty to me.
Mostly, though, this (and all the comments) make me want to go see it again 🙂
Bucky was not doing his best work in this movie, but even though I am a lawyer and therefore generally “All Rules and Regulations All The Time”, I was #TeamCap for this one because a) Tony Stark is an unbearable twonk, and, more importantly b) Steve and Bucky gets me every single time. Not for shippy reasons, but because poor Steve has not only lost the love of his life, but also his entire world; everyone he’s ever known is dead or old, all the places he knew, all the things he loved, everything is gone. No wonder he wants to stay with the one guy who can still reminisce with him about their childhood; there is literally no-one else who will ever get him on that level, ever again.
+1 for “twonk”
Also, Bucky looked out for him when they were kids and Steve couldn’t fight his own battles (not that that kept him from trying). Now Bucky’s the one who’s been hurt by bullies (and by bullies I mean Nazi brainwashing overlords), and Steve refuses to let his friend deal with this alone.
Possibly my only verbal reaction after the film was “Paul Rudd. I like Paul Rudd.”
If Paul Rudd were your boyfriend, you would sing karaoke every Tuesday and enjoy being embarrassing. He’d sing Like a Virgin and you’d know all the lyrics to the Time Warp and Wannabe (even the fast parts).
I’m opposed to monarchy as an actual government, but I think it makes sense for T’Challa’s character that there’s an overlap between “only guy who seems to understand abt great power/great responsibility” and “has been raised since birth to benevolently rule his country & protect his people”
Okay, this thing about Bucky not apologising is wrong, here’s three reasons why:
(1) Mallory is muddying the waters of the word “sorry”, which can be used to express remorse or sympathy. The latter (“I’m sorry for your loss”) might be a reasonable expectation, but the former (“I’m sorry for what I did”) is not something that anyone should be expected to say with regards to actions they are not in any way responsible for. What the hell.
(2) Mind-control is traumatic. I find the parallel with Jessica Jones especially disquieting here because how could you watch Jessica Jones and not get that? Jessica and Bucky both have pretty severe PTSD from the experience of being mind-controlled itself, with every evil thing they were forced to do against their will compounding that trauma. Expecting Bucky to apologise for actions he committed while mind-controlled is gross and also something I am sure Mallory and Nicole would roundly condemn if “mind-controlled” was swapped for “suffering from mental health problems that caused him to act in ways beyond his control”. There was a weird vibe running through this as if Bucky is just being emo and not struggling to reassemble his identity while also dealing with PTSD and having memories of the people he was forced to murder stuck in his head. I don’t see how Bucky needs to apologise to Tony for a trauma that was inflicted on him.
(3) The video was traumatic for Bucky too. Bucky had to watch himself murdering someone. Also, while it’s obviously not even close to a parent-child relationship, Steve and Bucky and Howard were all close friends in the war, but Steve and Bucky have had way less time to grieve for Howard than Tony. Tony lost his parents 25 years before the events of Civil War. At the absolute most, Steve and Bucky’s memories of Howard alive seem like they were about five years ago, and Steve only found out that Bucky killed Howard two years ago, and Bucky only found out he killed Howard just now. I feel like, in context, it’s totally understandable for Bucky to have pretty much any adverse reaction, up to and including going really quiet and then trying to run away from Tony after Tony attacks him and just lying there defeated after Tony rips his goddamn arm off. Even if I thought for a moment that Bucky had anything to apologise for, he seems entitled to his own emotions as regards watching a video of him killing his friend, and does not need to immediately toss them aside to make Tony feel better.
BONUS ROUND: Jessica did not need to apologise to Luke for being used by Kilgrave to kill his wife against her will. She totally needed to apologise for not telling him before sleeping with him. But she no more needed to apologise for being the tool of her destruction than if Kilgrave had picked her up and used her as a bat to kill Luke’s wife.
I know this is just fun movie yelling, but I honestly found this line of thought really upsetting and please mock Bucky’s hair at all available opportunities but also leave him alone.
P.S. None of this is to disparage Tony’s reaction. His reaction was just as understandable.
I agree. I found some of this review really disturbing to read. You know, I love the Toast as much as everyone else, but I really don’t always love how Mallory and Nicole write about men who’ve been victimized, like they’re just sullen or whatever for having been traumatized. I remember a similar–and really dismaying–attitude towards a male rape victim in an article or something posted here a while ago.
I’m genuinely not sure what past article or what rape victim you are referring to! If you think of it, please let me know, because I do not believe Nicole or I have written anything dismissive about a male rape victim.
I don’t know exactly which article they’re referring to, but I do totally agree that ‘Bucky should apologize for stuff he did while brainwashed’ is…kind of skeevy. Scratch that, it’s super skeevy. Bucky’s Hydra handlers should totally apologize, but they are 1) probably dead, and 2) obviously have the moral compass of a coyote, so probably no go on that. Bucky had the same ability to choose as a tomato for most of his life. Expecting him to be fully up on social graces while he’s still trying to put himself back together and has just seen his life get flushed down the toilet (again) and been re-traumatized is very strange.
This is nice, thank you.
I’m 100% with you on this tbh. I came here to say basically exactly this and you beat me to it. I think a lot of people on Team “LOL BUCKY SUCKS AND IS AN ASSHOLE” either forgets entirely or willfully dismisses the trauma and torture that he’s been subjected to by actual Nazis for seventy years, like – wow, friends, come on. I can’t imagine I’d be the picture of cheerfulness and mental health after that?
it would take an awful lot to get me to side with Robert Downey Jr
AND THEN THIS MOVIE MADE ME SIDE WITH ROBERT DOWNEY JR
THANKS A LOT, CAPTAIN AMERICA
This. I was horrified to find myself pulling for RDJ (well, actually for T’Challa to be in a better movie, and for women to do something that isn’t fighting in basques), and I’m sure there’s plenty of meta on why Steve was actually in the right, but there’s no bit in the movie where he so much as suggests ‘Um, the government are infiltrated by Nazis, maybe we could uh…do something?’, he just smugs that America’s hands are the safest.
I don’t think he thinks any government hands are the safest. He thinks HIS hands are. Steve’s watched a ton of governmental organizations make horrible decisions going back to WWII. I don’t think he trusts any organization at this point.
The lack of in-movie explanation for anything was pretty annoying. Like, they touched on everything and it was all clearly there but everything moved so fast there was a lot of blink-and-miss-it moments.
i have not in fact seen this movie, but i would like to just say that steve rogers is not in fact a chemistry black hole because he has GREAT chemistry with sam wilson in winter soldier, and anyone who says otherwise is BLATANTLY LYING.
But they got all worked up over the Sokovia Accords and there was no point. The Avengers can agree to be guided but they can’t be forced. I mean, some of them are guys in suits and if you take away the suits they have nothing, but some have intrinsic powers, and if the UN tells them to do something they don’t want to do, they won’t do it. Or if the UN wants to prevent them from doing something they want to do, they’ll do it anyway. There’s no way that prison boat could hold Vision or Scarlet Witch, and as long as one of them is free, that one can come for the rest. Obviously, because that’s what they did.
So why get into a huge punch-out over rules that literally mean nothing? Signing a contract with the Avengers is like signing a contract with your cat.
Agreed, though I think the significance of signing was less its capabilities as far as what it could hold the OP members of the team to, and more basically that it was a public statement saying that “we, the Avengers, respect the will of all people of the world, and will work to earn your trust by working with the people representing you.”
I mean sure, it’s super debatable how WELL the UN represents the nations they represent, but like, it’s something? Instead of the *nothing* that the rest of the Avengers offered in the face of “hey, you blew up a bunch of Wakandan peacekeepers, wtf can you not?” (Like clearly they were remorseful in private, but usually when someone messes up to that degree, one expects a little more than ‘I feel bad, and that’s punishment enough.’)
It’s kind of ridiculous because it’s not even like the Avengers working with the UN or establishing a clear set of jurisdictions should be a problem! Canonically there is a United Nations charter outlining procedures and requirements for the team which.. like as far as I know, is still in effect? (Hard to say with all the changes in Marvel comics but) Basically THIS SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN AN ISSUE.
http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Avengers_Charter
The only two people with romantic chemistry in this movie were Scarlet Witch and Vision. I ship it. I’m sorry. I’m not sorry.
I miss the sparks that flew with Steve and Sam in Winter Soldier–I mean, Sam is kind of still bringing it, but it got hella “no homo.”
On the other hand, I did enjoy my movie theater experience on opening night: when Steve and Sharon kissed, the entire theater made an “ennnnhhhh” noise. A collective nope. The sound of a hundred people NOT shipping that.
Nicole I love you, but Anthony Edward Stark is my forever boy and this SLANDERING OF HIS GOOD NAME WILL NOT STAND!
(I kid, he’s several shades of asshole and I recognise that but I still hopelessly and irrevocably love him to the point I was #teamironman as soon as the film title was announced)
Talking of non apologies, WHAT WAS THAT LETTER AT THE END, STEVEN GRANT ROGERS?! “I hope one day you’ll understand” is not an apology, it’s a neat little way of transferring the blame onto the person who deserves the apology! Both characters need to sit down and have this conversation:
STEVE: I am sorry for not telling you your parents were murderized by my friend, especially after harping on about not keeping secrets for an entire movie. In addition, I am sorry for not at least looking at the Accords and unilaterally deciding that 117 countries are wrong and everyone should just be cool with a mostly American team of superheroes led by a guy decked in the American flag crossing borders and causing a heap of damage without any oversight. Thanks to the Hydra/SHIELD reveal, I am paranoid about governing figures, but for some reason the movie didn’t delve too deeply into that.
TONY: Thank you for that, Steve. I am still grieving after 20 or so years of repressing my emotions w.r.t my parents deaths though, so while I accept your apology I cannot really forgive you for that massive years long lie and then your willingness to protect Bucky above all else.
STEVE: That’s fair, but, as my non-apology letter-I am sorry for that btw- kind of points out I am having and have had issues with connecting with the future. Bucky is my last link to the past and I went a little too far in protecting him. I would ask you not to take your grief out in a violent way on Bucky, who was brainwashed until he had no semblance of self any more.
TONY: I can do that.
TONY: I too have some apologies to make. I should never have planted the Accords down in front of the Avengers and told you we had to sign, or else. While General Ross may have been running the show, I was the one who unilaterally decided that this was the only way we could still operate. It should have been a team decision after careful consideration and review and I took that away from you all. Thanks to my largely untreated PTSD, paranoia and guilt regarding casualties from our superheroing activities I often go too far in the other direction when I get it into my head that I need to protect people. I am also sorry for my grief stricken emotional reaction of attempting to murder Bucky. With time and distance I recognise that was wrong. Fair warning though, the sight of his moppetty little head will still cause me rage.
STEVE: Looks like we both made huge decisions for large groups of people mostly motivated by our own highly compromised emotions/viewpoints.
TONY: Yep. We should probably discuss this more though, because one therapeutic conversation is not enough to undo the damage to our relationship to each other or the rest of the team.
STEVE: I agree. Same time next week?
TONY: You’re on.
BUT I KNOW IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. God, just say sorry to each other and go beat up the alien that’s coming to destroy your world.
This is perfect.
MALLORY: ahahha
yeah what is it about Chris Evans?
NICOLE: like kissing your dead lady’s niece
Heh, yeah.
The thing I most loved about this film was when Rhodes arrives to arrest Bucky / Cap / Black Panther and he says “Congratulations Cap, you’re a criminal!”. You can practically envision the precise moment when the word “terrorist” was changed in the second draft of the script. If only Cap had been brown!
IT’S FASCINATING TO SEE WHERE THIS MOVIE /ALMOST/ BRUSHES UP AGAINST COMMENTING ON REAL LIFE POLITICS, BUT THEN JERK AWAY AT THE LAST MINUTE FOR FEAR OF OFFENDING ANY MEMBER OF ITS MASSIVE BILLION DOLLAR AUDIENCE. it’s like watching the ebb and flow of the tide.
Like, that moment when you see Sam Wilson in underwater guantanamo bay, and he makes a SUPER QUICK Mark Fuhrman reference, and you realise you’re watching a black man being unfairly incarcerated without due process. And nearly everyone representing official government agencies is like…white…and most of the people hurt by the Avengers are…not white…and I’m sitting there wondering how long can people argue about this on screen without someone straight up saying the words “imperialism” or “american supremacy” or whatev.
The thing I most loved about this film was when Rhodes arrives to arrest Bucky / Cap / Black Panther and he says "Congratulations Cap, you're a criminal!". You can practically envision the precise moment when the word "terrorist" was changed in the second draft of the script. If only Cap had been brown!
YOU MONSTER
In current comics continuity, Black Widow has powers. This is a total pet peeve of mine that in the MCU, it’s assumed she doesn’t have any. Yes, her powers were a retcon done primarily to justify keeping her young and sexy, but IIRC, the retcon happened before her first MCU appearance and it shouldn’t matter why. (and the Red Room stuff was all a retcon, too, and that’s definitely in the MCU). In comics continuity, she was given a Russian super soldier serum that resulted in her aging either slowly or not at all (can’t remember which), having a mild healing factor, and enhanced agility. I am not a big comic book reader, so what I’ve been told is that her powers are portrayed inconsistently, but IMHO, the stuff she does makes more sense if she has her comic book powers.
I did not see Iron Man 2, so I’m not sure if something was said there to explain why it’s assumed that Black Widow has no powers in the MCU. She doesn’t even have to know about them yet if the MCU goes with the false memory version of her story. I would love if the Black Widow movie that Feige is now hinting we will actually get starts with Natasha breaking through false memories and learning that she is waaaaay older than she thought and powered (because her origin makes no sense as currently portrayed, she was 5 when the Berlin Wall came down. I do not buy that during the chaos period of the USSR break up–when a cosmonaut was stranded in the space station–Natasha would have received Black Widow training).
And Bruce listening in the background. I loved that.
What? Where?
They may well be playing Pogs with vibranium shields.
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No but didn't Steve read through it? I seem to remember him sitting there actually reading through it which was why he was all no way not gonna sign not happening