In the hours and days after it’s release, I heard breathless accounts of Mad Max: Fury Road as the second coming of action films and better yet, folks said, this was a feminist movie! Given the overall disdain if not blatant disrespect and degradation most movies express for women, I took this as mighty high praise.
Having now seen the movie, some of the hype was well deserved. I had a blast. Mad Max: Fury Road is an awesome action movie that kept me at the edge of my seat for two hours. The world building was utterly immersive. By the time I stumbled out of the theater, I could taste the sweet poison of gasoline at the back of my throat. There was also the pleasant thrill of watching women taking on the patriarchy with, of course, the help of Max.
As I watched the movie, though, I kept trying to find the feminism so many people I respect are able to see. Why do you think Mad Max: Fury Road is (or isn’t) feminist? A more interesting question: what is a feminist movie and can one possibly be made in traditional Hollywood?
This weekend, I am SO READY for San Andreas? What are you gonna see?
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Various folks chime in on what they believe is unsayable.
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I am from Nebraska and Nebraska abolished the death penalty which is excellent.
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Navajo midwives are working to protect indigenous birth knowledge.
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Sandwiches are delicious.
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Some new words have been added to the Scrabble dictionary. This is very important news.
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I saw Aliens last week and LOVED IT. I had sort of seen it before without paying attention, but damn, Sigourney Weaver is amazing. The aliens were very gross. Here is Tim Carmody on Aliens as an excellent movie about technology.
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Remember that pretty rich people cabin Kevin Costner took Whitney Houston to in The Bodyguard? It’s for sale!!!
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Michelle Dean writes about being a child research subject.
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Neverland is also for sale. Heh.
Tags: butter churning, interesting links, mad max: fury road, musings, the butter
Re: Mad Max’s feminism – for me it was the little things. When Max rides passenger as Furiosa pilots the rig without complaint. When he serves as her rifle stand so she can take the shot. When he proposes the plan of going back to The Citadel, but acknowledges that it is Furiosa’s decison (because this is HER mission – he’s just along for the ride). This is the way things SHOULD be in movies, but the way they never are. And it was fucking refreshing!
There were definitely some explicitly feminist moments (the women writing “women aren’t property” on the floor when they left, for ex.), but yeah, I feel like it’s less that it’s soooo feminist and more that it’s just not automatically non- or anti-feminist the way so many of these movies are, and that’s extremely refreshing.
One writer also pointed out something pretty cool – instead of going off to create their own separate female space, as feminists are often admonished to do, the women eventually came back and retook the patriarchy’s stronghold.
There is a Tumblr account for just this, and it is GOLDEN:
http://feministmadmax.tumblr.com/
Exactly. People saying it was feminist or not feminist because Furiosa gets to be badass and kill people missed the point. The great parts that were feminist were the small details. The scene where we first see the wives, and it subverts the expectations of objectifying them when you realize he’s just looking at the water they’re wasting. Having the War Boys never question Furiosa’s orders until there is reason to do so (when the other groups are following them). There’s never a scene where her qualifications are questioned by either side. Having an R-rated movie about sex slaves never show any sex, and only have one instance of nudity, which is a trap set by a group of women. Furiosa’s prosthetic arm is never mentioned by anyone, it’s just there, also awesome. Little things like that are what added up to be the most feminist movie I’ve seen in ages. There’s also a great variety of kinds of women in the movie: not just the badass warrior types like Furiosa and the motorcycle gang, but the feminine but not helpless wives, and the women giving the breast milk back at the Citadel. Plus there were the bigger thematic examples: “we are not things,” showing how the toxic masculinity harmed the men as well (Nux!!). There are just so many things!
And that all the types of women you mentioned were allowed to just be who they were – it was okay that some of the wives wanted to kick ass more than others – and everyone contributed in ways that played to their individual strengths and limitations.
And they all cared for each other! I don’t think the wives ever said a bad word against each other, even against the one who defected, and they became instant friends with the Vuvalini.
Man, that moment when The Dag TRICKED Rictus Erectus into pitching her onto the car, subverting her own previous freakout in order to help the rest of the women get ONTO the car! I feel like I haven’t seen that mentioned anywhere but it was this great moment of character growth and showed her using her talents and also just sort of her backstory, like, probably Toast The Knowing didn’t get that chance because she didn’t ASK the same way, so she was just trapped, but the Dag was free to help because she’d asked – it was SO GREAT and it took all of thirty seconds.
And, intriguingly, in a movie that legitimately cast women as sex-slaves/breeders/milk-generators, they were never robbed of their agency by the filmmakers. By the setup of their society? Yes. But in terms of the narrative, they were not simply objects to be acted on. They had their own reactions to this society (which ranged from anger to fear — the scene where Cheedo the Fragile tries to run back because the uncertainty of Not Knowing was worse was actually remarkably believable), acted against it, and were actually not singled out in their objectification. The entire point was that Immortan Joe saw everything and everyone as his for the taking, which made all of them tools rather than people to him — Furiosa and the War Boys were used for war, fertile women were used for breeding, and none of them had a say in it. Yet, despite that, they were all people in their own right, even while under the command of a patriarchal overlord. And, none of the characters questioned that all of them were equally capable in their own spheres. They had their own backstories (none of which needed to be drummed into you), their own capabilities (which were very varied), and (biggest of all) their own minds/personalities. It was a movie that had a group of amazing characters that happened to be female, as opposed to having Female Characters. And the fact that it didn’t need to beat you over the head with it — the fact that it was an awesome, action-packed thrill ride anyway — was a big part of what, to me, made it a feminist film. The women were present and varied and just as important as the men, and it wasn’t presented as a token Because They’re Women.
Yes! And what was especially remarkable to me, more in a filmmaking sense than a feminist one, was what you said about their backstories not needing to be drummed into you. This was one of the best movies I’ve ever seen in regards to the show, don’t tell concept. There are a ton of characters, and a lot of crazy things about this society. It would have been so easy to have somebody explaining everything to Tom Hardy the entire movie, to get the exposition out of the way. Instead, Miller trusts us that we’re going to pay attention and figure out on our own what it means when the War Boys spray paint onto their faces and yell about witnessing them. We get so little dialogue and yet SO much characterization. All of the women have their own distinct personalities (which is sadly more than can be said for a lot of women in action movies), and it’s all done with such incredible economy. Compare it to something like Jupiter Ascending, which was basically three hours of people explaining shit to Mila Kunis. Miller doesn’t hold our hand like that. We get to work it out on our own. And I love that so much.
Yes! I agree 100%. From the perspective of film-making, there are a lot of people who need to step up their game to match this. It had truly complete world building (let’s face it, we have a huge understanding of each of the characters and the society they come from) without ever breaking stride in a two-hour adrenaline rush. That is some seriously impressive story telling. I enjoy filmmakers thinking we’re intelligent enough to keep up, without beating us over the head with useless exposition (usually compounded by some fairly bad acting). Add in the huge amount of practical effects rather than CG… a lot of the other movies out there are looking seriously anemic in comparison.
(And, I just really love world building. Anything that just embraces the fact that This Is Not Our World and fills in all the potential blanks makes me really, really happy.)
For me the most amazing moment was when Max washes off the blood from the people he killed using mothers’ milk.
It’s funny because for me, what made it feminist is that it looks like it is explicitly a metaphor for this combination of old-white-guy capitalism/militarism/religiosity, and is a parable that they have to be destroyed — like, right down to the young men who are essentially conscripted into service by mainlining this artificial machismo.
I mean, I guess it’s not bell hooks or what have you, but for an action movie to specifically set up a tyranny that is clearly meant as a reflection of the current world, to portray that tyrrany as both grotesquely sexist and monstrous, and then to also say unequivocally that it has to be completely destroyed, I think that’s actually a pretty huge deal.
I was trying to think of the last movie I saw whose theme was literally “smash the patriarchy”, I’m not sure I can think of one.
ETA: I guess I didn’t make it clear, but the thing I think is funny is that for me it’s not necessarily the small parts, but actually the BIG parts — the overarching theme and plot — that make it specifically a feminist parable for me. But I like the small parts, too! Everything was great.
I don’t think it was feminist in that it was an actively politically feminist movie. I think it was a movie that wasn’t steeped in misogyny with lots of extra misogyny on top shot through the male gaze, so it’s cream of the crop — but “women-positive” isn’t quite the same as “feminist”. (I thought the movie was great fun! Lots of women, all being different people and doing their own active plot things. Elderly women, fat women.)
I have seen the arguments about Immortan Joe and toxic masculinity with the War Boys and Nux, though I’m not convinced it’s the only reading, or even the best one.
But tbh I saw this movie because I heard it enraged the MRAs and thought it was as good an ad as any I would ever see.
See, this for me becomes more a question of semantics than specifically feminism. I mean, feminism is legitimately just the idea of women being treated as equal to men. Doesn’t a film that does exactly that earn the term “feminist”?
Even laying aside the continuing sub-theme of “people are not objects”, it did a very good job of presenting the female characters in the same light as the male characters. They have their own skills, personalities, backstories, etc; and, despite the societal presentation of warrior vs. breeder vs. non-human, were often presented as having skills to fill in the gaps of their male counterparts in an organic non-gender oriented way.
The movie was called “Mad Max”, and yet it was more a question of Max being dropped into the midst of Furiosa’s story, and that was never a problem. I think we can debate “feminist” or “women-positive” til the cows come home (undoubtedly a very long time in their world), but it still boils down to the fact that we had a movie (and an action movie at that!) where there were characters who were women rather than a special box marked off for “Female Character”. In its own way, that’s a pretty huge deal.
…and I am super excited to see a movie with WOC, women missing limbs, women kicking butt, and women actually *helping each other* in the face of a terrifying man rather than blaming one another. While surrounded by explosions. It does my little heart good.
I thought that MMFR was feminist in the way that it subverted/inverted most antifeminist tropes of action movies.
Also, I wanted to pull out Erika Moen’s contribution to the “unspeakable” post:
The issue I’m most scared to discuss publicly is the way I see progressives turning the harassment techniques of their persecutors on members of their own community. It’s generally over minor differences or easily correctable moments of ignorance, but one mistake – even if it’s apologised for and used as a catalyst for growth and change – can suddenly justify years of emotional bludgeoning and ostracisation. That’s not productive. That doesn’t make the world a better place. Everyone’s entitled to feel their anger and express themselves when they’re offended, but I don’t see that as a permission slip to become abusive. We can do better than that. We are better than that.
See also: The Tumblr Pile-On, quite often over something that’s a hoax or at least wildly exaggerated.
Agreed on the Moen bit. Overreactions only allow People Who Actually Defend Horrible Actions to pretend that they’re the true victims. But is it any surprise that people with emotional baggage from being bullied unconsciously replicate it?
No surprise here.
Aside from the many, many awesome women in the movie, the whole thing is about escaping sexual slavery, women (and men) cooperating together to achieve things, and generally about undermining a patriarchal system built on selfish waste and the objectification of people, which plays out in countless different ways throughout the picture.
I am so proud to say that I lived in Lincoln for 3 years, and I’m friends with Stacy Anderson, executive director of the nonprofit Nebraskans for Alternatives to the Death Penalty, and this is such a huge moment for her and everyone who has worked to get Nebraska to this point! I know she probably won’t see this but I just have to give her a shout-out here.
Thanks, Roxane! Everytime I read a new post about how Mad Max is or isn’t a feminist movie, it gets me thinking about what is even a feminist movie? For a second I thought Roxane was about to write *that* article, and damn, I would have loved to read it. (please write that article?) But like the rest of her question goes, I feel like every movie/tv show/book can have feminist elements, feminist characters, and characters who are feminist. But they will still be products of an industry and a context that is very much sexist and misogynistic to various degrees.
What I do love about Mad Max Fury Road is that it feels more like a feminist trap – it was initially packaged as a traditional male action flick appealing only to dudes, which implies that it will also be focused around the story of dudes doing dudes stuff. When you get there, it’s about women liberating themselves in a world dominated by dudes – while being only helped by the dude hero who is supposed to be the proxis for the dudes in the audience. I get the feeling the reaction the movie got – which includes all the MRA whining and the cries for “finally, some feminism in my action movies!” – is more powerful than the movie itself. Which I guess makes the movie pretty powerful.
I am trying to write that article but I keep struggling to find a way into the essay.
Whenever I try to chew on the “what is a feminist movie?” question, I come back to thinking about how, as originally written/conceived, Ripley (Alien franchise) wasn’t necessarily locked in as a female character. If I remember correctly, the original script didn’t actually specify anybody’s gender. And of course I think about Aliens, with all that crazy birthing/egg laying/mothering stuff (if you haven’t, you should check out James Cameron’s overwrought director’s cut of Aliens). I should say I just adore the entire Alien franchise. I also have always wondered about Ridley Scott, and wonder what does Scott think of women, or what do Scott’s films have as a vision for women/feminism? (G.I. Jane! Thelma and Louise! Alien! Prometheus, for eff’s sake!) Look forward to reading your thoughts when you are able to gather them.
I didn’t see Fury Road as a feminist movie. What I saw it as was a movie that managed, astonishingly, to not be misogynist. Its creators used their own understanding of feminism to avoid the pitfalls of misogyny that the vast majority of movies in the industry fall into, but that does not make Fury Road itself feminist. Just good.
Actually, for me it was so cool to watch in part because I *wasn’t* thinking about feminism the entire time I was in the movie theater. Some movies make me think about feminism because they participate in feminist discussion which is fine but tiring sometimes, and some make me think about feminism because they try to pander to what they think feminists want in a cringeworthy way, and some make me think about feminism because they are misogynist and make me unhappy. Not Fury Road. I was just watching a movie, and I didn’t have to squelch any anger during it at all.
If not being misogynist makes it feminist by some people’s definiton, I sorta get that, but I don’t consider Fury Road feminist. Showing a variety of women acting out various roles in interesting ways doesn’t make something feminist by default, just accurate storytelling, since women participating in society in a variety of roles reflects the real world (which is itself not remotely feminist most of the time). I love this movie for being good storytelling.
+1 to that. I think it’s pretty sad that were so starved for decent movies that as soon as a movie isn’t (as) misogynistic we jump on declaring it feminist – and that’s not the fault of feminists, to be clear. it’s sad for the movie industry and general state of the world.
That was what I wanted to say, except better thought out and worded.
I think MMFR succeeds in being feminist because it didn’t seem to try to. The story just happened to be about women.
I think this interaction sums up the attitude of the people making the movie:
Also, I love Tom Hardy
Tom Hardy you got-dang HERO.
I hadn’t seen that second gif set! Perfect. That man is perfect. (Did you see Locke? It was amazing and everyone should see it.)
I haven’t! I did suffer through Wuthering Heights for him though. Gah, I hate that story.
I am looking forward to Legend this fall
UNF. I didn’t think it was possible to love him more.
That second gifset is, partially, what the cop show Scott & Bailey tried to do.
Once upon a time I got in a conversation with a Famous Fandom Feminist about whether or not Terry Pratchett [was] Feminist and she knew him, and she said “HE IS DEFINITELY NOT FEMINIST, he just likes women a lot” and I really wonder, sometimes, whether there’s a meaningful difference there.
Anyway, as I said above, my favourite bits of MMFR were things like The Dag initially running back, then using that running-back to trick Rictus Erectus into helping her get (I think) Furiosa onto Immortan Joe’s car, because she was the only non-escapey wife, where Toast The Knowing (HEYYYYYYYY, TOASTIES) was trapped because she’s clearly more rebellious, so couldn’t help in the same way. Everyone got their bit. Every Chekov’s Gun went off, even the little ones.
I also loved how the wives SEEM perfect in that first, hilarious, awful, wasteful water-shot, but then we quickly start to see that The Splendid Angharad has extensive facial scarring, that Cheedo the Fragile had hand tattoos (and apparently doc martens survive the Apocalypse) – that nobody’s perfect, here. It was pretty great, that everyone got their bit. It made me really happy, and I thought it was feminist in that it let women actually have a bit, unlike anyone who’s ever been pregnant on a Joss Whedon production.
What are the odds Toast The Knowing’s name is a literal shout out to the Toast? We can go ahead and assume it is, right?
oh, i’ve decided, privately decided, that it definitely is.
Don’t mind if I do! (The actual story behind Toast’s name is really super sweet, tho.)
I think Terry Pratchett tried to be feminist, but the Discworld only got as far as its equivalent of White Feminism.
Someone said this in a discussion at WisCon and I’ve been spreading it around everywhere because a) I love it and b) it encapsulates for me what makes Fury Road a feminist movie: Everyone got their agency back. The Milk Mothers go from being exploited to feed one family to giving water to the community. Capable goes from baby machine to Keeper of the Seeds (and the wives generally from slaves to rulers in the Citadel). Max goes from Nux’s bloodbag to giving his blood to Furiosa to save her life. It really powerfully shows how important choice is to everyone and how much difference it makes in their lives and the lives of everyone around them.
Okay, I hadn’t thought about this, and it’s amazing. Two thumbs up, and now I have to see the movie for a third time.
That split second where they showed the milk mothers turning on the water meant so much. I really like this interpretation!
A film whose whole premise is founded on rape, where not only do you never see rape, the very existence of that rape is shown to the audience by the women’s defiance of their abuser and their support/rescue of themselves/each other.
yeah, that line from the mad max feminist tumblr. “I don’t need to see you being abused. I believe you.” Oof.
My favorite thing about Aliens is the way Hicks respects Ripley and finds her strength and capability to be sexy. She tells him to show her how to use all the weapons because “I can handle myself” and he’s all “Yeah, I noticed” in a way that says “Yeah, I noticed, and it. is. HOT.” And, of course, when Ripley says “I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure” but people ignore her and defer to Hicks, what does he say? “I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.” And then he kind of looks at her conspiratorially, like, “Can you believe these assholes? Maybe they’re not listening to you, but I am.”
I’ll just leave this here: http://feministmadmax.tumblr.com/
Personally, I think it’s more a testament to how bad most action films are at having actual female characters who are people that Mad Max can be called ‘feminist’. It’s so much better than most other action films at having women in it, but that says more to me about how bad they are than about how good it is (although I think it’s totally brilliant in its own right). I don’t want to overreact about the potential feminism in Mad Max, because I feel like there should be a place for really explicitly totally feminist action films as well as awesome action films with female characters with agency.
Speaking of people who recognize how awesome Aliens is, requisite link to Sady Doyle’s piece Ellen Ripley Saved My Life.
yeah, that line from the mad max feminist tumblr. "I don't need to see you being abused. I believe you." Oof.
The way I see it, feminism is a neutral state, not an extreme position. Women are people. So a film that lacks sexism and misogyny *is* feminist.
Personally, it was so so so good to watch a fun explodey-y action film without any moments of feeling sick or violated. I keep wanting to say “this was such a safe movie” but I know that won’t carry the message I’m aiming for.
The way I see it, feminism is a neutral state, not an extreme position. Women are people. So a film that lacks sexism and misogyny *is* feminist.
Personally, it was so so so good to watch a fun explodey-y action film without any moments of feeling sick or violated. I keep wanting to say "this was such a safe movie" but I know that won't carry the message I'm aiming for.
Oh! The other thing I noticed is that in this film, masculinity is explicitly performative.
We’re used to seeing men wearing suits and told that’s neutral, just clothes, but femininity is an act, a performance (when in fact both are).
In MM:FR, the women – even the wives – wore basic plain fabrics. The men were the ones with outlandish over the top chest armour, the doof warrior, the bodypaint, the unnecessary spikes, etc etc.
It was both straight-up fun (the bullet farmer’s judge wig! and then he was blinded and became lady justice!) and … not even a reversal, but the truth: masculinity IS performative
Girl Detective, you are awesome! I agree with you 100%.
Oh! The other thing I noticed is that in this film, masculinity is explicitly performative.
We're used to seeing men wearing suits and told that's neutral, just clothes, but femininity is an act, a performance (when in fact both are).
In MM:FR, the women – even the wives – wore basic plain fabrics. The men were the ones with outlandish over the top chest armour, the doof warrior, the bodypaint, the unnecessary spikes, etc etc.
It was both straight-up fun (the bullet farmer's judge wig! and then he was blinded and became lady justice!) and … not even a reversal, but the truth: masculinity IS performative
I'd never thought of that!
Sad that nobody is raging about so many of those worthless “words” that Scrabble added.
(mostly because I haven’t seen Fury Road yet…)
The “Neverland” piece includes a video that auto-plays. Could we please put up an alert for Toasties browsing at work (which we would never do . . . )?
It is about women rising up against their male oppressors and working together across generations and class lines to build a new society.
I think these are all really great ideas. I’ve thought a lot about this since I’ve seen it, and I’m still thinking about it, but here’s where I’m at:
It’s not truly feminist. Despite Imperator Furiosa’s leading role in the film and Max essentially playing her assistant, the film is still called Mad Max. Why? This inherently answers our question: yes, the film is empowering, but it is still a Hollywood production where some still feel that women cannot carry a film. The film is definitely a sign of progress, but overall, it’s just not there yet.
I think these are all really great ideas. I've thought a lot about this since I've seen it, and I'm still thinking about it, but here's where I'm at:
It's not truly feminist. Despite Imperator Furiosa's leading role in the film and Max essentially playing her assistant, the film is still called Mad Max. Why? This inherently answers our question: yes, the film is empowering, but it is still a Hollywood production where some still feel that women cannot carry a film. The film is definitely a sign of progress, but overall, it's just not there yet.