Dear Aunt Acid,
I am a young woman in a committed live-in relationship with a man who is great and supportive and whom I love very much. I was helped onto my feet after college when I gained control of a small trust fund that my parents and grandparents had been building up since I was born. I know I’m very lucky to have a safety net, and I generally live within my means as a broke non-profit employee and plan to eventually use the trust for something Big and Adult like a down payment on a house. However, my partner hates saving, admits he has “no self control” with money, and prefers to spend his money as it comes. I know it’s his money and he should do what he wants, but it also frustrates me that he’d rather buy fancy food and go out all the time than plan for a future that doesn’t include panicking about being priced out of our shitty apartment every six months. How do I talk to a person I love about money when we both know that I’m only in my current, stable financial position because I got lucky and outside help?
Writing to a stranger for advice for the first time,
Trust Fund Baby
Dear Trust Fund Baby,
Remember that line that the Rubio Bot kept repeating at the recent Republican debate that got the candidate into so much trouble? “Let’s dispel with this fiction that Obama doesn’t know what he’s doing. He knows exactly what he’s doing.” Well, let’s dispel with this fiction that you don’t know what you’re doing, money-wise, just because you “got lucky” and have a trust fund. You say in your email that you “generally live within [your] means” and that you look forward to using the cash that your parents and grandparents squirreled away for you on an asset and investment such as a house. Congratulations, my friend: you have earned your Financially Savvy merit badge. I’m not kidding! These may seem like basic, no-brainer decisions for you, but they’re not. Indeed, your partner’s less-savey, more-spendy approach is an example of how many people do money.
Impulse control is difficult. What you’re doing – getting a job and keep it, putting cash away for the future rather than exchanging it a quick hedonistic rush in the now – can be hard. Rather than undermining your confidence in yourself because you’ve been lucky and had some help, give yourself some praise. That kind of self-care, of recognizing and appreciating your own value, doesn’t cost a dime.
So, now, how do you talk to your partner about something this important? Frankly. If you’re going to have a future together, he needs to be more mature about money. Suggest that he start reading some accessible personal finance sites like, oh, I don’t know, The Billfold. Tell him you’ll be happy to discuss strategies at length to find ones that he’s comfortable with, to see a financial planner or advisor together, and/or to be patient as he figures out how to do better — as long as he agrees to try and do better.
And remember, there’s no one perfect way for couples to merge assets. A system wherein you retain largely separate accounts might end up working for you; or maybe a system wherein much of your income goes into a communal fund, but each of you retains a certain percentage to do with as you will, and you can be an ant with your Fun Money and he can be a grasshopper with his. What never works, though, is a system wherein each party is frustrated with or secretly resentful of the other. You have to be able to communicate about things that are this important. It’s part of learning to Adult.
You seem to feel a little guilty about your good fortune, and you shouldn’t. Some people are lucky and some aren’t — it’s what we do with our luck that counts.
Just my two cents,
Aunt Acid
Dear Aunt Acid,
My sister has been married to “Bill” for three years. My parents and I have been wary of this guy for a long time, to say the least, but so far things have been okay and they seem happy. Now I’m starting to get worried. Bill is a talented chef, but can’t seem to hold onto a job. He’s had at least 15 jobs in the past three years, all for about three months until he’ll abruptly transfer somewhere else. For the past five months, he seems to have given up. He’s home all day smoking weed and playing XBox while my sister works her ass off to support them on her modest nonprofit salary. He’s not out there looking for jobs in other industries or any alternatives, even just bagging groceries to help support them. His only idea is a far-fetched plan to start his own weed distribution company when the state legalizes medical marijuana in 2018. My sister swears she’s okay, they’re okay, but evades questions about him or gets defensive when offered help, and seems exhausted and sick a lot of the time. Bill may be legitimately depressed and need help, or he may just be a deadbeat who is using her. Either way, it’s been torture for me not to get involved and try to help her in some way. How can I be of help without butting into her marriage and having this backfire?
–Sister
Dear Sister,
You can’t. Not really. I’m sorry: I know you want to be Anna to her Elsa and ride to her rescue, but it’s not your place, and through her actions your sister is making that very clear. People can’t save other people who don’t want to — and aren’t asking to — be saved.
There are some relatively small things you can do, though, to let her know that she can always rely on or turn to you, should she need to. You can keep your ears open, listening sympathetically when she talks to you about her troubles, and your mouth clamped shut on any criticism of her domestic arrangements. You can make it clear through your own actions that you are less interested in judging her than in supporting her. If you have some cash to spare, you can give her a material assist in ways that don’t ding her pride—like a Trader Joe’s gift card or an offer to pick things up for her at Costco. If you don’t have cash to spare, you can make concrete, specific suggestions of things you’d be happy to do that might make her life easier, like helping out with yard work or taking some clothes to the laundromat for her.
If you manage to do this while still treating her as an equal rather than as an invalid or a charity case, it will help her to let her guard down around you, to see you as an ally, and make her more likely to confide in you should something serious go wrong. Whether she makes that choice or not, this is her life. Make that your mantra: this is her life.
As I tell myself whenever I consider a friend’s mystifying relationship, she must be getting something out of it—great sex, emotional fulfillment, or simply the satisfaction that a caretaker-type person derives from protecting someone who clearly isn’t able to handle himself: whatever it is, if it’s enough for her, it’s enough for her. She doesn’t need to justify herself to you or to anyone. Considering your own strong caretaker-type drive to protect your sister, I think you might be able to relate?
Tactfully,
Aunt Acid
LW1, you should consider having a Big Serious Talk with your boyfriend about the kinds of financial goals you have for yourself in your life, and what it will take to get there. You say you want a house. Do you want kids? To travel to fun places? To retire at a reasonable age? Those are some pretty major life choices, and if those are things you want, you may not be able to achieve them if you’re financially tethered to someone who can’t stop spending. You don’t bring up debt, but does he have any? Will he have any if he gets sick or laid off, because he has no financial cushion?
I think once you’re cohabiting, it’s not really a reasonable solution to be totally laissez-faire about your SO’s finances. Putting someone you love in a bad position because you don’t want to change anything about the way you’re living is a bad recipe for any relationship. Live and let live only gets you so far if he can’t swing his share of the rent in a particular month.
I’m not saying you should dump him, but it wouldn’t be completely crazy to let him know this may be a dealbreaker if he’s unwilling to meet you somewhere in the middle.
I agree – saying “we’ll cover all the expenses together, and you spend your money impulsively while I save for the future” really means “I’ll deny myself now so that we can both have a future” and is not the road to happiness.
It really could be a dealbreaker if he’s uninterested in changing! I don’t think it’s wise at all to stay financially tied to someone who admits they have no self-control with money. I bet they could work something out where they set the budget and allocate fun money and he does fine within externally-set boundaries. But they so need those Big Picture talks to figure out if they’re on the same page.
Good point! It’s possible that a situation where the LW basically has control over all finances and Partner gets a weekly/biweekly, etc. “allowance” could work, if they’re both open to that situation. To me, personally, that feels icky because it feels both infantilizing to Partner and like putting way too much pressure/responsibility on LW and I know that I would resent the hell out of that situation were I in it on either side. However, I also know people with arrangements like that who are very happy! It takes all kinds, and so on.
Yep, I think I’d hate it too, for those exact reasons! But if this money thing is just an Achilles heel for him and he’s otherwise good at taking responsibility, etc, a budget like that could be just the crutch he needs. But it has to be something he wants for himself, not something she’s forcing him into, or it will be that infantilizing dynamic.
I actually know a couple who does this too, and it totally works for them. But both sides have to be completely on board with it.
LW1, please also consider that you don’t have that trust fund “because you’re lucky” — you have it because your parents and grandparents were financially savvy and had the forethought to start a trust fund and prioritize contributing to it. You didn’t win the lottery – you inherited both money AND good money habits from people who care for you. Sure, you’re lucky to have good parents and family support, but this money did not descend from the sky in a random chance. You have this money for the same reason you will have future money – because you and your family have made good decisions. That’s something to be proud of, not guilty about.
eh, some of it is most likely luck. This implies that people whose parents/ grandparents didn’t leave a trust fund weren’t savvy. Sometimes life works out that way, and for a lot of reasons plenty of people don’t have parents/ grandparents with wealth, for instance white families are way more likely to have wealth to hand down than black families cause of white supremacy.
I agree that it isn’t useful to be guilty about it, but most of us are at least somewhat where we are cause of luck, or chance.
That is true. I feel very lucky that my parents were big-time savers and paid for my education, that I got to go to good schools and got a good job, and, frankly, that where I am from and the color of my skin helped me to get there. Not everyone has that luck and I always try to remind myself of that. But I think you can be grateful for the luck you have, and also acknowledge that you are making smart decisions (and that some people start out with the same luck and do not make smart decisions).
Agreed 100%! I definitely wasn’t trying to imply that people without money to give to their children aren’t financially savvy, but I see how what I left out of my comment makes it look that way. She’s lucky that her parents and grandparents were lucky and privileged to have the kind of lives that allowed them to create that trust fund… but my point is that if her parents and grandparents had acted like her boyfriend, the money wouldn’t be there. You can acknowledge your/your family’s privilege and still be proud of your financial good sense.
Aunty, thank you so much for your acidic advice and congrats on the bebe!
Aunty, thank you so much for your acidic advice and congrats on the bebe!
LW1–I agree with the above commenters that this is a serious situation with definite long term impacts on your relationship. Money and attitudes surrounding it destroys relationships, and not for no reason. Financial irresponsibility is a dealbreaker for me, and I make no apologies about it.
You don’t mention in your letter, but it might be worth considering what kind of background your partner comes from. People who grow up poor often have trouble saving, even if they manage to make it into a pay bracket that allows for saving, because when you grow up poor you grow up knowing that there is never enough money, that it will all disappear, so you might as well spend what you have and make yourself happy in the short term. I have a close friend who is struggling with this problem now–who has a stable, well-paying job for the first time in his life, and it’s been difficult for him to learn how to manage his excess cash. If your partner comes from a background like that, something like a combination of therapy and financial counseling might be effective if he’s open to it.
In the short term, strong boundaries around money–including keeping 100% separate finances, and I’d argue, NOT cohabiting, will probably help alleviate the problem. Long term, if cohabitation and co-ownership of a home is something you really want, this may not be the partner for you. Good luck.
I had the same first thought; if LW1’s boyfriend is from a poorer background, that might account for his spending habits. As wordnerd mentioned in a comment above, LW1 comes from a family that had excellent saving habits, which is something to be proud of! It also means that LW1 came from a family with the ability to save, and if the boyfriend did not, they may have totally opposite approaches to money.
I also wonder, w/r/t fancy food and going out, is there a part of the boyfriend who is doing this because he thinks it’s what a boyfriend should do? We don’t know if this going out is on dates or drinks/events with his friends, but that might be a sticking point, too. Is he trying to spend to make LW1 (who might have grown up more financially comfortable) happy? If so, it could be helpful in a conversation about money to say, “the best gift you could give me is saving for our future–I don’t expect you to do that and pay for dates every weekend.” Could that take some weight off the boyfriend’s shoulder’s, if he knows he doesn’t have to “measure up?”
I grew up in a frugal by necessity family- good money habits but always the consciousness that there was No Cash. And oh boy, when I got my first job! I frivoled money like a CHAMPION- partly because there was a long list of straight-up life equipment I needed (new woollen tights instead of darning them for the 3rd year! the dentist!), but a large part was grabbing enjoyment and Not Denying Wants because it had been so very long. I had a scarcity mindset- take it now! there may never be cake again!- and it took me years to get past that and believe that I could save for the future because there was going to be one.
Luckily the poverty years habits prevented me from getting into debt but there was a big patch of time where I accumulated very little in the way of assets.
Good point about the possibility of gender expectations too- guys get a lot of messaging about splashing out on specific things, including treating their girlfriend to fancy meals, and maybe a ‘hey you know that’s not so important to me, what if we did…’ could be an opening.
That is EXACTLY what I did too. I didn’t go into any debt because I basically went from “job pays me so little that I am malnourished and no one will give me a credit card” to “new job pays me almost double my old salary so I am quite comfortable now, thanks” – but I bought so much dumb stuff as well as life equipment. I’m STILL buying life equipment, honestly, even though I’ve been comfortable for about 4 years now, but that last “poor” Christmas and that first “rich” Christmas were both so odd. I didn’t know what to tell my mom when she asked me what I wanted – first it was “I am so poor, I don’t even know what a WANT is – all I have are NEEDS” … and then that mentality stayed with me even into my new job.
I have a small savings account now, which I’m very proud of and try not to touch, but that scarcity mentality is insidious.
“People who grow up poor often have trouble saving, even if they manage to make it into a pay bracket that allows for saving, because when you grow up poor you grow up knowing that there is never enough money, that it will all disappear, so you might as well spend what you have and make yourself happy in the short term.”
This can’t be explained or emphasized enough, and people tend to learn the wrong lesson from it. Getting extra money means that the extra money is GOING to disappear when you are poor. When I was really broke, I would take cash and put it in a drawer for my tax refund, it never lasted more than 4 months. No matter how hard I tried. And often when you are broke there are about 200 things you SHOULD be spending your money on but can’t, so you might as well just get some freaking pizza, because you’re not going to get everything done anyway.
If you’re going to have a future together, he needs to be more mature about money.
Oof. I do not agree with this advice! LW1 and their partner need to make their money work in a way that works for both of them, and it’s completely possible and reasonable that LW1 can only be happy with someone who has the same attitude to money and saving that they have themselves. But starting that conversation with the framework, “my attitude to money is good and right and mature and yours is immature and babyish” sounds like a recipe for disaster.
LW1, is your attitude to money “start saving or say goodbye to me”? It’s totally allowed if that is your attitude, and if you’re absolutely certain that you can’t be happy with someone who spends their money straight away, that’s a really good thing to know about yourself! But there may be other solutions that work for both of you, so I would consider starting the conversation in a more open and constructive way and seeing whether the two of you can generate some more options.
I happen to agree here. Mr. Editor & I came from very different financial backgrounds with different approaches to money. After lot of low-stakes talks, we figured out that I just have a better mind for the abstraction of finance than him, so I’m the Household CFO, which I don’t mind or resent him for at all (the not resenting is important). I account for the money we can afford to spend on stuff and fancy food and wine, what goes into savings for a down payment, what’s for bills and rent, how can we pay down student loans and not get swallowed by interest. And my partner was a really willing and eager participant, but the details about how money works gave him a lot of anxiety.
Basically, you just need to find your own system and hear not just *that* he likes spending money on fancy food (which you don’t get the same fulfillment from) but *why* he does. Eating really well on a daily basis is part of mine & Mr. Editor’s value system because it’s more important to us than, say, travel. You can take my occasionless, weeknight Clicquot out of my cold dead hands. That doesn’t make me “irresponsible” but it does mean I’m not taking international flights any time soon. Wanting to save for a house is not a moral imperative if you dream of being nomadic, but not saving for a house when it is your shared goal creates a problem. Listening to what he wants to spend on and why, in context of what you want to save for and why, helps you manage the money together. And if you’re the one doing the math & are okay with that, that’s cool too! If you need support in the finance department, that’s also fine! But it involves talkin’ it out. Over many conversations. When it isn’t a fight.
Agree that you can’t start the conversation off with a attitude of I am mature and you are a frivolous baby, but it can start with hey this is something that is important to me and I need to know if this is something you can consider.
This is a conversation that comes up in Financial Independence (FI) communities all the time- how to start the discussion, how to make it not an attack on the other person’s behaviour. It’s tricky, and it’s definitely not a gender-based concern. But best to start working it out before moving in together.
I don’t think Aunt Acid advised starting the conversation that way! It’s fair to observe that someone who “hates saving, admits he has ‘no self control’ with money” isn’t mature about finances yet.
LW2 – if your sister is working her ass off, maybe support her in giving her some time to relax. I found, when a friend of mine was in a similar situation, she really valued (and eventually opened up to me on these days) when I suggested we go for a picnic on the weekends, got our nails done together, practiced cooking new recipes together etc. Sometimes down time is the best thing you can give someone, when they won’t accept help in any other way. Everybody loves a chill out day, right?
LW #2: I have a friend who has been in and out of an emotionally and verbally abusive relationship for almost two years. It is excruciating to watch, especially since I am a capital-H “Helper” personality-type.
I agree with Aunt Acid: you really do just have to let go and let your sister do what she’s going to do. You are probably 1,000% Objectively Right that she would be better off without this guy. But if that’s not how your sister sees it, then your opinions not only don’t matter, they will end up actively driving her away from you as she seeks to defend her decision to stay with him.
I found that the book To Be an Anchor in the Storm: A Guide for Families and Friends of Abused Women gave some very helpful advice on how to be a good friend to my friend while simultaneously sitting with my uncomfortable feelings about her relationship.
Thanks for the book rec – this is a situation I’m attempting (not well) to navigate myself, and I really needed to hear “As I tell myself whenever I consider a friend’s mystifying relationship, she must be getting something out of it” as well as to acknowledge that I’m in major Caretaker Helper Fixer mode about this, which is Not Helpful right now.
Argh, I’m so sorry that you’re in this position — and so sorry that your friend is in that kind of relationship. It sucks, doesn’t it?
Something that really helped me tame my Helper instincts was reading that when I badger my friend about being with this man, I am mirroring her abuser’s behavior. The vicious jerk my friend is dating has no problem dictating what she wears, what she eats, who she talks to, or how she spends her free time. When I question her about the choices that she, an Adult Woman, makes about her own relationships, I undermine her confidence just like her abuser does. Sure, my motives are 4,000 times better, and yeah, he is objectively doing terrible stuff, but if she hears from her best friend that she doesn’t know how to run her life, why wouldn’t she believe the same words coming from her terrible boyfriend?
Since realizing that, I have become a LOT less prescriptive when we talk. Instead, I try to focus on building up her confidence and reminding her that she is a smart, loveable, kickass person. I also act as a reality check when she tells me some of the batshit insane things he says (HORRIFYING ACTUAL EXAMPLE: “Friend, it is perfectly healthy and normal to be friends with single women, and the fact that your boyfriend is actively discouraging that is very weird”). However, I don’t follow my reality checks up with “…SO YOU SHOULD DUMP HIS ASS, LIKE, YESTERDAY. O_O”, even though those are the words shrieking from my heart. If I truly believe that she is the strong, competent woman I tell her she is — and I do — I have to trust that she will do the best thing for herself.
Thanks for the scripts. And you make a ton of sense: he is telling her that her every second and decision is accountable to him, so I should instead reinforce her right to make her own decisions and spend her time as she likes – even if what she likes is living with him.
It’s so, so hard to do, especially when you see your lovely, vibrant friend receive so much abuse from someone she loves.
I like to think that my lack of criticizing her over her romantic choice helps create an environment that is a strong counterpoint to the environment she experiences when she interacts with her boyfriend.
She has said that when she’s around him, she feels like her shoulders are constantly up around her ears because he is always telling her she isn’t Good Enough. By being a healthy person who respects her choices and boundaries (even though I strongly disagree with them), I’m creating a space for her where she is treated like she should be treated. She can relax when she interacts with me. She doesn’t have to deflect my anger and controlling urges. My hope is that this — and interactions with other people who treat her respectfully — will leave enough of an impression that she will begin to realize that she deserves better than the treatment she gets from her boyfriend. I do think that it’s working: she has been more open with me about a lot of the bad stuff he does, and has said that she knows the relationship is unhealthy.
Good luck to you as you deal with this. I was in therapy for much of the beginning of my friend’s relationship, and that really, really helped me create and maintain my current outlook. It gave me a place to obsess over the issue and vent my more uncharitable thoughts (“Is she stupid? Does she like this? Do I still respect her?” [The answer is yes, of course I still respect her, but it was a thought that crossed my mind a lot.]). It was SO nice to have a place to deal with my own feelings about this issue.
Thank you. Part of the problem is that I’m the one she turns to when it’s bad and she needs to cry / vent / brainstorm a better future, and though I long ago learned not to ask any follow-up questions, her knowing she revealed all that to me causes her to withdraw just in case I do press her on it. Or because she’s burying her feelings about not acting on making the changes. Or something – I don’t know, because I don’t ask; I know better. It doesn’t spare me the frustration and sorrow and uncharitable thoughts and everything else, but I do know to guard against bringing those feelings to her.
I completely agree with this. The other thing I think is hugely helpful is just going and doing fun, ordinary stuff and not talking about The Bad Relationship. Look! There is a fun interesting world out here! There are films to watch and gigs to go to and political issues to talk about and puppies to pet and interior design trends to disapprove of! You can have a holiday from the doom and gloom and micromanaging and misery!
I agree wholeheartedly! I think that beyond the fun break that it provides to one’s friend, it also helps to remind the Concerned Friend that this is a person that you enjoy interacting with.
There were certain points in my relationship with my friend where I felt like the relationship was becoming all about me caring for/worrying about her. Supporting a friend in an abusive relationship can create a Helper/Helpee dynamic that can foster resentment on the part of the Helper and make you forget why you were even friends with the Helpee in the first place. Doing fun things with your friend helps to remind you that, oh yeah, I love hanging out with this person and she brings as much joy into my life as I bring into hers.
Difficult to achieve given that he is suspicious of every minute they’re apart, which means I’m biting my tongue as she texts him updates/reassurance that I’m not bringing her into the presence of other men. But I try.
Even though a lot of my friends are Helpers, I have stayed in really messed up relationships because a lot of my friends and family also have the “Let me tell you why your lifestyle choices are stupid…” thing. In spades. My abusive SO had the knack for making it seem like he was the only one who respected my ability to actually decide things! This was because he wanted me to be a replacement for his mother, but still… When I was around other people it was just “We don’t want to be your friend anymore because you made a choice we don’t agree with…” which made it seem like he was the only person who actually cared about me unconditionally.
Thank you for the rec – looks like the latest edition has the altered title “Helping Her Get Free: A Guide For Families And Friends Of Abused Women” and the kindle edition is currently 99 cents….!
Thanks for letting us know about the updated title! I’m comparing prices on Amazon, and the edition you cite is definitely cheaper. I got my copy from the library; I guess they had the older edition.
I was looking at some of the comments for Helping Her Get Free, and one person mentioned that the book is very similar to the older edition, with the only major difference being the list of resources for abuse victims in the back of the book. I mention this just in case someone has already purchased the To Be An Anchor in the Storm edition and is worried that they should have purchased the newest edition.
Ugh, the saver-vs-spender thing in a relationship can get SO fraught. People’s money habits and the reasons for them can be so incredibly complicated. I’m in a long-term relationship, and for the past few months we’ve been having repeated disagreements over money. The bit about backgrounds having an effect on spending habits is so, so true. I grew up poor, and that feeling of never having enough money for things that I wanted is still so fresh, even though it’s been years since that was the case. If I have a bit of extra cash, I tend to use it to buy something nice for myself….not impulsive purchases, but maybe a really nice pair of shoes or a clothing item that I know will last. It’s sort of….storing up things for a future in which there may not be any extra money. My partner, who has been financially comfortable his whole life, cannot relate and is baffled by this, and sees it just as me being irresponsible with money. To him, doing anything but saving extra cash is irresponsible. It’s so hard to find a middle ground. We have a shared amount of money we use for household expenses, groceries, gas, etc, and I’m EXTREMELY careful with it and monitor my spending meticulously at the grocery store, etc. The money I use for things for myself is usually money I bring in with my side job (ebay store) or occasionally money gifted for a birthday or Christmas or what have you. I get really resentful about him giving me a hard time over my spending of what I see as ‘my’ money. Ugh. Thank god for therapy.
LW2:
By all means, be supportive if she mentions something Bill’s doing (or not doing) that’s bugging her but keep it more along the lines of “that sounds rough” than “I don’t know why you put up with him”.
Wherever possible avoid criticising Bill to your sister. It can put her in the position of feeling like she needs to defend him to you, which makes it harder for her to reach out if things are rocky.
I’ve been in that situation, and believe me the spectre of potential “I told you so”s looms large if things move from ‘not perfect but may be resolved’ to ‘becoming unworkable’.
Does anyone have a recommendation for finance/money websites other than the Billfold? I like it well enough but am always open to other avenues for such topics!
Not a website, but Elizabeth Warren’s All Your Worth is super common sense.
Not everyone’s cup of tea by any means, but Mr Money Mustache (mrmoneymustache.com) really made me question my financial assumptions. I don’t agree with everything he says but you don’t hear those kinds of be-frugal, retire-early ideas from conventional financial talking heads.
Thanks for letting us know about the updated title! I'm comparing prices on Amazon, and the edition you cite is definitely cheaper. I got my copy from the library; I guess they had the older edition.
I was looking at some of the comments for Helping Her Get Free, and one person mentioned that the book is very similar to the older edition, with the only major difference being the list of resources for abuse victims in the back of the book. I mention this just in case someone has already purchased the To Be An Anchor in the Storm edition and is worried that they should have purchased the newest edition.