Feel free to ask Aunt Acid a variety of questions at [email protected]. Previous installments can be found here.
Dear Aunt Acid,
I’m an undergraduate woman participating in a summer math research program. My project team consists of me and two other students, both men. Both of them curse constantly and casually. As long as they’re just swearing, it doesn’t bother me enough to make it worth bringing up, but I do object to their misogynistic language — “what a little bitch,” “don’t be such a pussy,” and so on. (Whether or not these words can be “reclaimed,” that’s definitely not what’s going on here.)
Today Bob held out his hand, gimme-five style, and said, “Here, touch me.” When Dave reached out, Bob jerked his hand away and said, “Just kidding, FAGGOT!” They clearly don’t think any of this is a big deal, and I don’t know how to call them out without them thinking that I’m an angry feminist. (I am an angry feminist, of course, but I’ve found it’s easier to get men to behave if they don’t know this.) What should I say?
Monica
Monica:
The world is full of injustices and cruelties over which we have no power. We can yell at Republican primary debates on TV, at international news coverage, at local news coverage, at street construction, at August weather; we can go all Howard Beale and stick our heads out the window and scream, “We’re mad as hell and we’re not going to take it anymore!” So often it seems like farting on a subway platform: No one will notice and nothing will change.
Every once in a while, though, life presents you with a problem you can solve. Not just that: a problem you can yell at, where yelling might actually make a difference.
If these boors in your program were your superiors, I would have to tell you to do the boring, responsible thing: approach them at least once, asking them to be more considerate in their speech; keep records, especially any example of their being offensive in writing; and file a complaint with Human Resources.
But these guys are just students. They’re on your level. Not in terms of maturity or understanding, but you know. Age-wise. Seniority-wise. Why not try yelling? Why not respond to them in the only language they seem to understand?
“Jesus Christ,” you could exclaim, slamming your hand down on your desk, the next time one of them does his hilarious routine. “What, are we in fourth grade? Can you cool it with this shit, please? You’re being juvenile, you’re being ignorant, and even if I weren’t offended, which I am — which any person with a functioning limbic system would be — you’re being ANNOYING. Shut the fuck up or I will go crazy and vomit angry feminist all over your laptops. Got it?”
Vent your frustration. At them. It might work. Even if it doesn’t, think how much better you’ll feel.
Profanely,
Aunt Acid
Dear Aunt Acid,
I live in a biggish U.S. city, but the queer scene is incredibly small. There are already quite a few spaces where I don’t go because of the racism/transphobia/misogyny/scene politics, so my social circle is pretty limited. Some of my friends who have lived here longest have a friend, who I’ll call Charlie, who I fucking hate. He’s never done or said anything offensive around me, but I find his personality just…grating. He’s a white cis man, I’m unsure if he identifies as queer (I’m a queer cis woman), and he talks CONSTANTLY over everyone, about nothing at all, and what he does say is almost always factually wrong. He’s friends with literally all of my close friends here, and I really like his partner, but I haven’t gotten to know them very well because Charlie is always around and I feel like I go out of my way to avoid him. I have no idea WHAT merit my other friends see in him, but they do. I guess my question is, should I say something to my other friends? Should I tell his partner that I want us to hang out, but please don’t invite Charlie? It’s a situation that has persisted for a while and I don’t know how to handle it. I don’t want our mutual friends to feel like I’m attacking him over nothing — I don’t like him AS A PERSON, it’s not that I think he’s a serial murderer or something — or can’t just suck it up and be around someone I don’t like, but I also know that I’m not going to warm up to him, having now been to enough house shows, parties and events that he was at to determine that his contributions to conversation do nothing for me, and I’d pretty much always rather he not be there.
Sincerely,
Possibly Petty, Definitely Cranky
PPDC:
Never underestimate the appeal of confident cis white men. There’s just something about them: their ability to take up space without apologizing for it, perhaps. Their voices, which we have been trained over millennia to associate with reassurance and authority. Their basilisk eyes. They run nearly everything important in the world, from the stock exchange to the New Yorker. Is it any wonder they are also playing havoc with your friend group?
This Charlie person sounds like a particularly irksome case in point, and I’m sorry all of your friends have been taken in by him. There are measures you can take to extricate yourself, though. We’re not in Kindergarten anymore; everyone understands that some people simply do not get along. Pull one or two of your closest friends aside and confide in them: “Look, Charlie and I are like oil and water. We don’t mix well. Can we aim for a thing where, if we’re doing something, we only invite him every third time? That’s about as much as we can handle of each other.”
If your friends are at all perceptive, they will not be shocked by this revelation. Nor will they stutter to a halt if you start taking more control of your social life, throwing more parties and organizing more events as well as, crucially, more one-on-one or intimate group gatherings, so as to have more of a say over the guest list.
Think of these efforts as counter-programming. It’s easier to start your own basic cable station than to try to get NBC to stop showing reruns of “Friends.” You may find that other people in and around your social circle are excited to have an opportunity to engage and relax in a Charlie-free environment — to change the channel, at least once in a while.
This doesn’t mean starting the equivalent of a “No Homers” clubhouse. You don’t have to be a jerk about excluding Charlie. In fact, please don’t. Assume that you will still probably see him more frequently than you would like, and be as cordial as you can without letting him raise your blood pressure. Because unless he does something truly heinous and/or you want to get all High Drama about forcing friends to choose between you, you’re probably stuck with him. You can reduce your exposure to Charlie, though, and if he’s been making you this cranky for this long, you should.
If people ask — and, duh, they will — make clear that it’s not personal. He hasn’t done anything to you, and you don’t wish him any harm. You’re not aiming to start any in-group fighting, let alone some kind of schism. You simply prefer to spend as much of your quality time as possible with people who are more like you in the important ways. Like, for example, they don’t have basilisk eyes. But keep that part to yourself.
Stonily,
Aunt Acid
LW2: Aunt Acid’s advice to throw more parties is a really good one. But I would be careful about her advice to ask your friends to only invite Charlie every third time. If YOU’RE doing the inviting, just don’t invite him. Ever. And don’t give people the opportunity to invite others (read: Charlie).
But asking other people to not invite him, especially to public-type events like shows, is a bit socially risky and could put your friends in an uncomfortable and unfair position. And considering you’re in a small social scene, I would tread carefully.
*Edited to fix my fucking grammar.
Yep agreed. Esp. as LW2 is new to the scene and Charlie is, for whatever inscrutable reasons, established.
Good point. I’m also wondering about how one can invite Charlie’s partner without him assuming that he can bring Charlie along. How can you gracefully make it clear that ONLY the partner is welcome, when they’re used to showing up together to this group’s get-togethers? It sounds like you’ll have to not-invite the partner, too (which may not matter to the OP in this case, but I can imagine others where that might be a loss…OR it could cause an issue if he’s besties with someone else in the group).
Maybe if LW2 started out by inviting Charlie’s partner to ticketed events? Like, “I’m going to see this play and I have an extra ticket, do you want to come?” Then LW2 could establish a pattern of hanging out with Charlie’s partner one on one, later transitioning to hangouts at other venues.
I’d personally be careful about this and the potential to set up situations which might put Charlie’s partner in an uncomfortable position, though. If you find Charlie abrasive enough that you don’t want to be in a room with him, but want to establish a stable friendship with his partner — well, people are partners for reasons. They choose each other and care about each other. And if you and Charlie’s partner hit it off, that could lead to some very uncomfortable trouble down the line when they wonder why you dodge events or plans that include him, get that look on your face when he comes up in conversation, or basically — without intention — default Partner into a role where they have to mediate or keep you two separate.
It’s a hard thing to be told by a friend that the person you love isn’t good enough for them. So…yes. I think I would just personally consider very carefully what’s wanted from the friendship with Partner.
agreed. and if you’re invited to parties where Charlie will be, you can skip out every so often, but don’t tell people WHY you’re skipping out. then that makes people who do actually like him feel really weird. i had friends who did this because they didn’t like one of the go-to guy’s new girlfriend. they openly told us they wouldn’t show up to anything that she was invited to. i really liked her, so… *they* were the ones who got cut out. if you show up, like, every third time, no one will notice if you don’t say anything.
An alternative method to dealing with Charlie might just be addressing his annoying behaviour. Like when he speaks over you, speak up and say “Excuse me, I wasn’t done speaking”. If he starts waffling on with absolute bullshit about something you know isn’t true, call him on it. You don’t have to be rude, but he doesn’t have the monopoly on facts. Guys like this don’t even know what they’re doing is objectionable. They think everyone is hanging on their every word, probably because no one ever told them they had no idea what they were talking about. Tell him. Repeatedly. With any luck, maybe he’ll stop wanting to hang out with you.
Sadly, many friend-groups are averse to conflict and just don’t want to make anyone feel alienated, even when that person’s very presence makes another of their friends feel alienated every time they are at the same party. Even when the other person physically assaulted you, the group solution is to offer no solution at all because by and large, people are well-meaning but cowardly when it comes to their own comfort.
The only solution I have ever found was to disengage MYSELF from events and lightly disengage from the friend group when there was a problem person in said group. You can’t really stop Charlie from being at things. You can, however, choose to accept only every third invitation, or to only attend events so large that you can easily hang out on one side of the room and never have to make conversation with Charlie.
Oh, one more thing! You can always just invite one or two people out to brunch or coffee or whatever and say that you just prefer small groups, if you’re worried about never seeing your friends. That way you’re not getting anyone worried about excluding anyone.
I like the small-group idea a lot. Have used before and certainly will again.
Love the advice on #1, am not totally sure that involving others in this personal gripe with Charlie will be super effective on #2.
Expanding: you might have to assume that Occam’s Razor holds, and that the people who spend time with Charlie do it because they like him—or, at least, find him tolerable. Before you launch into “him or me” mode, you might want to do some subtle fact-finding to see if the Razor holds true. Asking a buddy or two, “Hey, what’s the deal with Charlie? Am I the only one who find the constant mansplaining irksome?” might net you blank stares, or a laugh and a “That’s our Charlie!” or a vigorous “I KNOW RIGHT?!” at which point you can commiserate with your new besties.
Because, if you know you have folks who subscribe to your un-Chuckles newsletter, when you start saying things like, “Hey, Charlie, I/Linda/Patrice WAS TALKING” or calling out his non-true statements, you will likely see some approving nods out the corner of your eye. Knowing those nods will be there ahead of time could be useful.
Of course, this is a little more aggressive-aggressive than the passive-aggressive route of trying to not make your paths cross, but if you’re okay with holding your own, and know you have allies, this could recalibrate the Charlie factor enough in your favour to make socializing as a group more worthwhile?
This is good advice. I did this in a similar situation and discovered that all of my female friends dislike the person I dislike and none of my male friends have a problem with her. She’s just one of those women who doesn’t really get along with other women, which I figure is her loss. Knowing that I’m not alone in my distaste for her has made dealing with her much easier as I know I can vent to people without causing any upset.
I also figured out that she’s jealous of my relationship with my best friend (a man) who I’m fairly certain she fancies. Which just proves to me that she is tiresome (like seriously, you can’t cope with a guy you like, who is not even your boyfriend and has no romantic interest in you, having a close female friend?), but again, helps me to deal with her.
Anyway, LW2, do go ahead and try and work out what everyone thinks of this dude and that might lighten your load.
Am I a terrible person? Because if I were to proceed with “Charlie”, I would not go about throwing parties to which he is not invited (I have one of these people in my friendgroup, they just always seem to hear about the event anyway).
I would advise calling Charlie on his crap. Like, straight up, the next time he interrupts someone else, say “Hunh. But I was really interested in what Friend X was saying”, *turns to and addresses friend X “you were saying…?” Or if he is interrupting you, _just don’t stop talking_. If he calls you on refusing to be interrupted, an innocent “O, since I was already talking, I just assumed that talking over each other was a thing we did now, sorry!”
This will play out one of two ways. 1) Charlie gets all butt-hurt and stops coming to things that you are at. WIN! 2) Charlie actually figure out that his behaviour is mansplainy and will change it.
The key to this, tho, is that you have to _always_ be polite (like, to the point of choking on the saccharine responses you will give) and that you have to _always_ be right. Eventually, tho, something will give.
No this is actually the less terrible-person approach.
But they are not mutually exclusive! I think it’s fine to go nuclear on him at events and also to host parties where you are actually happy and comfortable and not engaged in in a battle with a mansplainer all the time.
Charlie sounds a lot like somebody I know, and if it’s a similar case– where the person isn’t malicious, just annoying– then there’s really no way to cut that person out of your social circle without drawing a lot of attention and looking like a jerk. In my case I didn’t have any kind of plan, I just got fed up one day and said something like “hey, can you stop interrupting and changing the subject? I want to settle the discussion I was having here.” We ended up talking about it one-on-one later, she was kind of hurt but never realized how obnoxious it is when she blurts stuff out in the middle of the conversation. I don’t think we have any hard feelings today.
I actually ended up pretty much dropping a friendgroup i was starting to get to know and like because of a pair of Charlies. Because I realized I just didn’t have the time or energy to follow through on strategies A (noninvited parties) or B (calling out politely and rightly). I still see a few one-on-one, but gave up on integrating into the whole group a couple years ago.
so these strategies work if you’re Really Invested in a group of people. I mean, as far as I can tell Charlies almost never actually get kicked out, and it’s up to you to decide what to do with that knowledge.
Yeah, I think this is like the battle of Saratoga – you need three directions of attack.
1) When you are in social situations where Charlie is also present, engage in the ways commenters have described – shut down his interruptions, correct his factual errors, etc.
2) Avoid Charlie – Engage your own social situations where Charlie is not present. Host your own parties. Make it clear that invitations should not be extended to additional individuals without checking with you. Opt not to go to things where Charlie will be presence if a lot of interaction will be required (e.g. go to things like shows/concerts, but not dinner/drinks/game days).
3) Talk to other members of your social circle and let them know that you are not a Charlie fan. This will make them less likely to try to invite him as a plus-one to things you are hosting, and also may help them curate their guest list for other things (this may mean you get invited to less stuff, especially if Charlie’s presence in the group is largely a function of his partner’s membership in the group).
Military history FTW!
Monica:
I am sorry you’ve had to deal with that. It’s the end of August, REUs and other similar projects are usually over by now, so, hopefully you don’t have to deal with these…. individuals anymore, unless they go to the same school as you do or you’re presenting together at conferences. When I did a math REU, my group was 100% womens college students. We still had someone who was terrible enough as a group member that none of us talk to her anymore, or even say her name out loud. And while our group was fine, there were some awkward conversations at lunch or in the dorm.
But, yeah, say something. There are lots of options. You could be annoyed per Aunt Acid above. You could be polite- “It’s just one of those things that distracts me! Could you please avoid that?”. You could make fun of them- “Seriously, that’s all you’ve got for insults? That’s pretty pathetic.”. You could pretend not to get it, and make them explain it- “Wait, if he… touches you… then he’s homosexual? Is that what you’re saying? I don’t understand. Could you explain that?” ……. “So you’re saying that you’re just so unattractive that anyone who’ll touch you must be interested in having sex with you?”. How you handle it will depend on your personality, how angry you are, what you think of these dudes, what point in the summer it is….
And then, depending on how they take that, you go to your adviser. This may be touchy, depending on who it is, and you may not know this person as well as other prof you’ll work with– but, with most REU and REU like programs, it’s WORK. You are being PAID to sit there all summer and math, with other mathematicians. And these bros weren’t acting like it was a math job, they were acting like it was math summer camp. So you don’t need to get into a philosophical discussion with the prof about feminism or queer theory– these dudes didn’t behave in a professional manner, your boss needs to deal with it somehow. Maybe the prof also says something, or you work on a different subtopic in a different room, or whatever.
So, whatever, maybe these bros are in your rearview mirror, maybe you just need to deal with them a couple more times, but, more generally, get yourself a community of math ladies. Whether that’s an informal tuesday-night-work-on-psets-and-bitchfest, or a formal mentoring circle sponsored by the department, whatever. I don’t know where you are, but consider finding some women-centric conferences (ie, Smith’s WiMiN (if you’re localish and that appeals to you, the info on 2015 doesn’t look like it’s up yet– if you wouldn’t feel comfortable contacting the Dept Chair about it, let me know and I’ll get details for you.))
Having other women who have dealt with this bullshit is SO NICE. People who remember being told to shut up in AP Calc in high school for asking a question that was “too smart” or whatever. People who can warn you about other departments to avoid, or advisers, or even just say “yeah, you can totally tell (prof) that the guys are being dudebros, he’ll be on your side” or “try talking to (grad student at your REU), he’s one of the good ones”. This works better if your community includes other people who have done REUs elsewhere, or gone to Budapest, or Junior years at other schools. But the bitchfest still works well even if it’s just people who have only done math at your school.
Thank you! The program’s over with (and also I’m planning on grad school in public health, which is probably more lady-friendly), but I am planning on putting together an informal STEM Ladies’ Hangout, based on your advice. I was chatting with a physics major the other day who said she’d also appreciate that, so we’ll see how it goes! 🙂
Perhaps I have been out of society for too long, but for the second question, I would be tempted to ask a friend who seems slightly less enamored of Charlie “So, is there something I’m not seeing about Charlie, or… Because his partner’s lovely, but…” and then trail off, leaving “but he’s a jackass” unsaid.
Maybe he’s an old friend whom most of the group has outgrown but he keeps on being invited because inertia, or because everyone thinks everyone else likes him. Like Bunny in “The Secret History”. (Please do not follow the example of “The Secret History”.)
LW 1: PLEASE YELL AT THESE DOLTS. They need to understand what they’re doing is a) not appropriate for adults and b) not appropriate in a professional setting, which is what your project is supposed to be preparing them for. DO THE WORLD A FAVOUR AND RELEASE YOUR RIGHTEOUS FEMINIST ANGER.
Charlie? We don’t have any Charlie in our friend group….
Re: Letter #1, it’s my experience that guys that age are pretty vulnerable to the implication that whatever they are doing is dumb and uncool. I’ve found being dismissive to work fairly well as long as you’re otherwise friendly with them. A response like “oh my God, are you serious? What are you, 12?” like you honestly are a little embarrassed for them can be pretty effective.
Given that they’re probably acting this way to try and get LW attention, she should be as dismissive and pitying of their shit as possible.
Do you just mean they like attention, or they were vying for my romantic attention? They knew I’m engaged so the latter seems unlikely, but it’s very plausible that they just like everyone else to be paying attention to them.
Think of it as Primate Display. They don’t have a goal in mind, it’s just part of their daily interactions.
Re: Letter #1: I am THERE. I recommend, if you are like me and hate confrontation, that you respond to these situations with your best “Not Funny, Guys” face. Bring your displeased-eyebrows game, harden your face into the archest-possible stone and look at them until they have seen and are uncomfortable, then return to your work. Repeat this every single time they say something offensive.
When I was a TA, one of our professors was constantly dropping slightly offensive comments. Mostly, people giggled uncomfortably, which (of course) encouraged him. He always insisted on advising a female grad student and having her be his TA for the duration of her degree; this often meant he had an amused female presence in his undergrad classes. My friend was his chosen TA during my degree – she employed her unamused eyebrows to great effect, and by the end of my second year, he was quite cowed.
I have had great sucess retraining a sexist coworker by employing a pointed “Wow. Really?” and then subject change back to the work we were doing. It really sends the message that its grand social faux pas and not just your opinion but it’s less confrontational than Auntie’s advice.
and if they ask why, just say something like “well, it’s kind of a weird thing to say out loud/at work. ” or “im just surpised you would say something like that.”
This is good advice! A lot of things we tend to think about in terms of privilege or prejudice (like fat-shaming) also fall under etiquette (Do Not Make Personal Remarks) and it’s a much smaller can of worms to open.
What’s important is holding the unamused face long enough for them to feel uncomfortable. It’s more than just the disgusted snort and eye roll that I see women do when they’re embarrassed by their boyfriend’s or husband’s boorish behavior. I call mine the “think abou what you just said blank stare”. It works beautifully but you have to commit.
Ultimately you have to go with what you can live with- I get that learning to not panic at confrontation is harder for some people than others. (As is learning not to relish confrontation when you know you’re in the right.)
I did make use of Rookie Mag’s wonderful old article on How To Bitchface.
Whoa, this is a thing of beauty.
True confession: I am married to a bit of a Charlie. And I make it my business to call him out when he is being loud for no reason, interrupting, inserting his opinion when he isn’t asked, etc. I think if someone he wasn’t married to would express these same sentiments, it would validate what I’m saying and help him see the value of self-policing.And I would probably develop a serious crush on anyone who helped me with training my Charlie. 🙂
I was a Charlie in my younger days. I learned better. It’s possible! Best of luck to you helping yours break the habit.
I’m manic depressive and try really hard to not be Charlie. I had some great teachers and aunties when I was younger, which helped some, but basically “MANIA!” plus I was raised in an environment with other people who tended to see talking over each other as normal. It took me a long time to realize how uncomfortable that type of behavior makes people.
Re: LW1. My boyfriend and his son talk like this. I hate the idea of dropping to their level. I hate yelling. I hate gratuitous swearing. I hate “bitch” and “pussy.” It feels so violating. I have tried quietly asking them to tone it down. But I fear their long years of this language, unchallenged is too much of an ingrained habit. I’ve had anxiety attacks over this. Perhaps I’ve been heard after the last time I fell apart over it.
Maybe I should try the motherly humiliation tactic? Sigh… not sure it’s worth it. So many other battles to fight.
I know a few people who still use “retard/retarded,” and because my job is transportation-related, I hear “transportation” sometimes abbreviated to “tranny” … so I’ve started calling them out gently. “Can you please not use that word?” “Hey, I’d appreciate it if you’d stop using that word.” Ad infinitum. Until it is your catchphrase. Until you open your mouth to ask your BF if he’s finished with dinner and he interrupts with “yeah yeah, don’t say bitch, got it.” (Then you can have a separate conversation with him about being irritating.) I work with SO. MANY. BROS. and in my experience, they roll their eyes the first couple times, and then when they keep hearing you say the same thing over and over, they will either just stop, or they’ll ask you why you care – which I think is even better because you can educate them and remind them that words really do have meaning, and other people can be hurt by careless words.
Hopefully the fact that the request is coming from someone your BF cares deeply about (you!) will make this a lot easier, but seriously: repetition helps.
How do men get to be BROS? I’ve been rather shielded from this demographic (on purpose) and I am stunned! The disrespect is horrific.
I’ve responded to peoples saying “pussy” with “Can we not use that word.” in about 130% normal volume, and it worked. (The first time, someone said, “What do you prefer, ‘vagina’?” and I said, “I prefer that part of my body not be used as an insult.” and that pretty much shut them up.)
*spirit fingers*
Very good! I will have to remember that one!
But hopefully I’ll now be in a much nicer environment. No longer surrounded by raging misanthropy, verbal abuse, TV/internet violence and neglect.
I am just reading this thread now and wanted to say “Go you!” Please let us know what we can do for you.
I’m old. What does ‘queer’ mean in the following: “I’m unsure if he identifies as queer (I’m a queer cis woman)”? I would have thought ‘queer’ and ‘cis’ to be mutually exclusive, but the letter writer clearly does not. Thanks.
Cis is conventionally used to indicate gender identity. Queer conventionally refers to sexual attraction.
thank you for the explanation, I wasn’t entirely clear on how to read that either!
Gotcha, thanks.
To elaborate on what Alli525 said, queer can refer to gender identity OR sexual orientation (or both at once), so the LW was disambiguating. Straight trans people can be queer and so can cis gay or bisexual people but theyre pretty different identities with different contexts.
ETA: queer is also a political label, so there are some gay/bi/trans folks who explicitly do not identify as queer because they are at odds with radical queer theory, and charlie is acting in a way that one would hope a politically queer person would know to avoid. Although that’s not always true in practice.
While Alli525 is 100% correct, I’ll expand things a little bit:
There are some people who will push the definition of “queer” out. Primarily it’s sexual attraction (gay/bi), but it can also be lack of sexual attraction (asexuality, demisexuality), more nuanced sexuality (pansexuality, sapiosexuality), people with complicated gender identities, some of which identify as cis, some of which don’t (ie, someone might identify as “genderqueer” and feel that “cis” is more accurate than “trans”). Some people even expand it to mean people who are non-monogamous or kinky.
And, of course, as with labels generally, what counts or doesn’t is often fiercely contested, especially in cases where straight cis people ID as queer because they’re kinky or poly. I am NOT trying to take a position here on what the definition OUGHT to be here, I’m just trying to describe a bunch of people that might self identify as “queer”.
So, “queer” can turn into a sort of umbrella term, especially if we’re talking about not being sure how someone else identifies, and is sometimes used instead of LGBT, or other similar acronyms.
I hope that LW #1 sees this:
I just finished my master’s in math from a private, well-known university. I didn’t experience any overt sexism in the math department at my lovely, small, private liberal-arts college, but grad school was HORRIBLE. So if you’re planning on going to graduate school, you truly and honestly need to visit the actual campuses of any programs you apply to and get any girls/non-binary people alone and ask them some serious questions about how they are treated there. Check to see how many female faculty / faculty of color / non-binary faculty there are. Math grad programs especially are full of guys in their 30s who won’t take you seriously because of how young you are (it has been my experience that women mathematicians go to grad school almost immediately after undergrad, whereas men wait around a while longer) and because of your gender.
I was told that I only got my full ride because the department needed more girls, I was laughed at for my career goals, men have been blatantly cruel and have gone out of their way to embarrass me publicly, I endured sexist language like you are currently having to endure. Even men who didn’t treat me horribly thought I should be “less sensitive.” Consider this math research program as a way to get a taste of how many men will treat you if you go to graduate school for math, unless you choose your program very carefully. I didn’t visit any of the campuses, and I paid dearly for it.
In the program I just left, there are three women students now. Two of them are going to leave the Ph.D. program after they finish their master’s, and one is sticking it out (despite being unhappy) because she really wants to work with one specific professor. All of us complained about the way we were treated, and no one listened. In fact, the head of the department didn’t even file our complaints with the Title IX office until we hijacked a department-wide presentation to complain. This same department head didn’t even tell the only tenured woman professor about our complaints (she was on sabbatical during the first round of the complaints, but was there and FURIOUS when we took over the presentation).
If you’re not planning on going to grad school, then this advice / these warnings are irrelevant, but I wanted to let you know just in case. I don’t want anything to happen to you or your love of mathematics. My own love of mathematics was soured by how I was treated by other people who loved math.
LW1: The math department at Smith spends a great deal of time, energy, and thought trying to make sure that the students who are interested in grad school are matched up with departments and graduate adviser who try to help people avoid programs like the one raisedeyebrow ended up in (speaking generally here, I don’t know which program she was in). Even with a VERY specific focus, sometimes things don’t work out. One friend started a PhD program in math only to switch to Econ fairly early on because of the toxic environment. the above is all very good advice.
raisedeyebrow: UGGGGGGGHHHHHHH UGGGGGH GROSS. jedi hugs.
I think a lot of the cis het guys I know would hate that kind of environment as well. The PhD’s in my family say it’s really important to check out whether the department you’d be in is a happy place, in general.
Oh my goodness. I’m so sorry they did that to you! I am planning on switching to public health for grad school, which seems to be way less male-dominated, and I went through a lot of anxiety about being one of the girls who dropped out of math. And I think I am going to miss it. But my word. I don’t think I could handle what you’ve described.
P.S. For anyone looking for math grad schools, I’m at Notre Dame and while I’m an undergrad and obviously don’t have a good picture of what grad school is like, I’ve never heard professors or grad students here being sexist.
Thank you. Every time I meet a woman or a non-binary person who wants to study math at the graduate level, I always try to warn them.
ETA: This was meant to be a reply to ginkgotree.
Thank you for the advice, Aunt Acid! The REU is over but I’m sure I will encounter plenty more dudebros over the course of my life, and I will keep this advice in mind!
I am just reading this thread now and wanted to say "Go you!" Please let us know what we can do for you.
Yikes, that all sounds incredibly exhausting. I'm so glad you're out of there. Here's some additional reading if the "wait, I'm not crazy?!" type for you: Shutting Off the Gaslight.
Hi. I would love to read, but the link is wonky…can you re-post, or tell me where it's at? Thanks!!
Crap, it looked right when I typed it up but it posted with the link back to this page. Weirddddd. Anyway here's the link: http://www.shakesville.com/2015/08/shutting-off-g…
I am amazed how much my life has changed in a few days just by reading this Advice Column and commenting about the use of offensive language. I didn’t know I was in such a state of denial. There I was thinking it was ok to be told I was too sensitive when I brought up things with my BF that offended me! I was so certain I needed to keep working on it, and they needed to keep stepping on my feelings so I could be tested!
<3<3<3, Your thoughts and feelings matter. They matter because they’re yours, and, yeah, sometimes they’re going to be rational and sometimes not so much, but people who care about you deeply will care that you feel hurt, EVEN if they think that you’re “too sensitive”.
Like, for example, imagine you HATED the word “green”. No particular reason, you just couldn’t stand to hear the word out loud. Now, that’s probably weird and irrational, and something you’d want to work on and get over. But it would still be hurtful for you to hear it. Now, a partner of yours might be happy to use some other word, of avoid the topic altogether. Or the partner might talk to you and discuss a strategy to help you get over your discomfort with that in a slow and purposeful way. Or the partner might say “look, I’m a landscaper, my company name is “Green Thumbs Inc”. Using the word “green” is important to me, and it’s difficult for you, and I don’t think this is going to work because I don’t want to hurt you”. All of those things would be okay, and loving ways to handle it. But the Dude who says, “whatever, you’re crazy, I’m going to use the word ‘green’ whenever and however I want to regardless of how it affects you”………. is not the right person to be in a relationship with.
And that’s an example where the underlying thing (not liking the word “green”) is a frankly absurd thing, on purpose. But we all have weird things our partners don’t share. The one thing in the house we want to be spotless, even if the rest of the house is a mess. The weird noise we hate, the food we can’t stand, the completely irrational dislike of SOMETHING, (or the dislike is rational, but the degree to which it’s disliked is not rational). Everyone’s got something, and how we negotiate those things with partners is SO TELLING. Are we on our own? Are we in partnership about how to deal with it? Is it a constant friction point? How do we talk about it? It’s not that there are right answers, and no one gets all of these things right all the time. But do we communicate with love or hostility?
I hope that as you move forward, you add more and more people who care about YOU, who care about your feelings (even when they’re silly or irrational), who help you to be your best self. I hope you keep in touch with us. I hope that when you look for affection, you get it.
Whoa, this is a thing of beauty.
I talk over people, too. Not as a gender based thing. I was literally raised by people who had "talk over each other" culture. I try not to do it if it's bothering someone, but… It might not be that he is a white cis male, it might be some other factor that causes this.