Previously in this series: If Julian of Norwich Were Your Professor
If Stephen Colbert were your dad, you would have a lot of strange memories from your childhood. For instance, you’d remember taking fishing trips when you didn’t pack any fishing rods or tackle. Instead, you stood side by side at the water’s edge, as Stephen Colbert proclaimed to the fish that becoming someone’s dinner was just their job, and what were they, some kind of slackers? One by one, the fish leapt from the water, silvery scales flashing in the sun as they landed, flailing, at your feet. You’re pretty sure a passing bear gutted and cleaned the fish for you, and that you, your dad, and the bear ate together like kings over the grill at the picnic shelter. “Did that really happen?” you sometimes think of asking him. “Or was it like that time I had a fever and I told you there was a bald eagle perched at the end of my bed, and you just said he owed you a favor?” But you don’t ask him. It’s better that way.
If Stephen Colbert were your dad, he would have explained death to you so gently when you were four years old that you got impatient with all the crying adults at your grandfather’s funeral. ‘Cause death is no big deal, didn’t they understand? Just the next great adventure.
If Stephen Colbert were your dad, you would have grown up calling Neil DeGrasse Tyson “Uncle Neil”, and on your 12th birthday, he would have named a star after you.
The first time you fell in love and got your heart broken, Stephen Colbert would make you laugh, which would make you angry. You’d tell your best friend that he just didn’t get it—maybe dads never do. Later, you’d run into your ex, who’d look hunted. There would be dark circles under their eyes and claw marks on their hands. “This giant fucking eagle scratches at my window every night,” they’d tell you in a hollow voice. “It just sits there, watching me. I haven’t slept in weeks. No one believes me.”
During Thanksgiving, you and your dad, who is Stephen Colbert, would go outside and throw a football around after dinner. He’d end up passing the ball to you so hard that it sailed right over your head, over the house, through the stratosphere, and into near earth orbit. Magical green sparks would still be shooting from his fingertips when you stopped gaping and looked back at him. “Better not mention this to your mother,” he’d say sheepishly. “I sort of let her believe that I lost all my powers when I dissolved my Super PAC.”
One time, in high school, when you were visiting the set of The Colbert Report, a hand appeared from underneath the giant C-shaped desk and offered you a venti chai latte. You’d seen the show before, you’d just assumed the whole “Starbucks under the desk” thing was a gag. “Good! I told them to take care of you,” is all your dad will say on the subject when you ask him about it later.
When you were a kid, you wouldn’t want to sit next to Stephen Colbert during church because he sang “so loud, oh my God, Dad, can you not?” Nowadays, even though you aren’t really sure how religious you still are, you still sit right up front at Mass on every visit home, singing along with the harmony, because Stephen Colbert always sings the harmony, and because you’re in your twenties now, and his beard has turned white, and you know that one day he’s going to die.
You know that Stephen Colbert understands oppressive systems, like racism and misogyny, because he was the one who taught you about them. So you’d be really confused when you heard that his writing staff consists of seventeen men and two women, all white. You’re sure there’s a good explanation — like, maybe literally every woman of color in the New York comedy scene turned him down? You’ll ask him the next time you talk to him. He wouldn’t act like a hypocrite for no reason, he wouldn’t, he’s your dad.
If Stephen Colbert were your dad, he’d steal your phone and look through your most-played iTunes tracks. All your favorite bands would start showing up as Late Show musical guests. When you finally made the connection, he’d be totally smug, like he just pulled off the world’s greatest practical joke.
When you got engaged, you’d take your fiance(e) to meet Stephen Colbert for dinner. He’d be warm and charming during the meal, but just before he got into his cab he’d turn to you with mournful eyes, and confess that now he finally knew how Elrond felt when his daughter Arwen gave up her life’s grace to marry Aragorn and become Queen of Gondor instead of sailing to the Undying Lands with the rest of her people. You’d assure him you’re only moving to Boston, and that unlike Arwen, you have access to Greyhound, and he’d sob into your shoulder a little.
If Stephen Colbert were your dad, he wouldn’t be able to help you with your French homework, but on your birthday he would sing “Happy Birthday” to you over the phone in perfect Sindarin.
If Stephen Colbert were your dad, you’d be his date to occasional red carpet events. People there would always be asking you what the real Stephen Colbert was like—you know, when he’s not in character, and there aren’t any cameras around. “That’s for us to know, and you to figure out,” you’d answer, not in a mean way, and then you and your dad, who is Stephen Colbert, would trade matching, enigmatic smiles as the cameras went off around you, and your teeth glinted inscrutably in the flashbulbs.
SO IS IT WRONG THAT I WANT COLBERT TO BE BOTH MY BOYFRIEND AND MY DAD – ASKING FOR A FRIEND
Dude, I was literally thinking the exact same thing.
I feel that way about the Daily Show’s OTHER Steve, Steve Carrell. It is a confusing but not unwelcome feeling.
My heart. My heart. I die, but I do so in perfect happiness. Do not mourn me, but use my ashes to pull some hilarious prank on Bill O’Reilly instead.
He’s only a few years older than me, so it doesn’t make a lot of sense for me to want him as my dad, but my God, I really do.
Yeah, strictly speaking he’s a bit young, he’s only 18 years older than me, but I read an interview where he talked about making jokes when his kids were upset, and they’d be like “NOT NOW, DAD” and he’d be like “I’m sorry, I’m so sorry I tried to make you feel better,” and I was like, THAT IS PEAK DAD RIGHT THERE.
I like my dad…
but I like Stephen Colbert Dad more.
“because Stephen Colbert always sings the harmony, and because you’re in your twenties now, and his beard has turned white, and you know that one day he’s going to die.”
Jesus. No website pulls off the “silly premise becomes unexpectedly moving” thing like the Toast.
This and “He wouldn’t act like a hypocrite for no reason, he wouldn’t, he’s your *dad*” yanked on my heartstrings HARD.
The father of my freshman roommate at college was/is some kind of big nuclear medicine doctor and when I lived with her, a scandal came out about how his mentor had used, in the 50’s and 60’s, institutionalized patients as guinea pigs. Watching her deal with that (and in my small way, trying to help her deal with that) was heartbreaking. Just so crushing. She managed to convince herself (with his denial backing her up) that her father was entirely blameless and the sainted man she thought he was. Ahhh, youth. I hoped that was true, but never was sure. Anyway…the feels.
My dad’s beard is white, too 🙁 🙁 🙁
His white beard was surprisingly alarming.
Alarming? Distressing, more like.
I believe this to be true.
oh my heavens, I’ve been on the verge of tears all day and this just pushed me right over the edge into legit bawling my eyes out
I have not been on the verge of tears all day, but I’m crying too. It was the LoTR references.
SAME oh my gosh
*passes box of tissues around*
It’s okay I’m crying too
You posted this right after the incest post on purpose, didn’t you?
FOR. REAL. I mean…
AAAAAAAAAAAARGH
I think the beauty tag may have reached its apex.
NO BEARS.
There was an incident shortly after the fishing trip that led to their branding as Godless Killing Machines. Prior to that, they were our Helpful Friendly Hirsute Neighbors.
Where do I get that haunting eagle? I have some places to send it.
OH my god:
When you got engaged, you’d take your fiance(e) to meet Stephen Colbert for dinner. He’d be warm and charming during the meal, but just before he got into his cab he’d turn to you with mournful eyes, and confess that now he finally knew how Elrond felt when his daughter Arwen gave up her life’s grace to marry Aragorn and become Queen of Gondor instead of sailing to the Undying Lands with the rest of her people. You’d assure him you’re only moving to Boston, and that unlike Arwen, you have access to Greyhound, and he’d sob into your shoulder a little.
C R Y I N G
I know right? Just DEAD.
The best explanation I can think of for why I wrote this article is that the best way to parody a parodist is with complete and utter sincerity.
Oh my GOD, you guys. I love my actual dad more than just about anything, because he’s amazing and has always taught me that I have the right to be safe and loved and respected, but I kind of want Stephen Colbert to be my dad now.
Also, remember when he was still a TDS correspondent, and he was quizzing this adorable redheaded 8-year old girl about the economy? I have no idea what he was trying to prompt her to say, but she responded to one phrase with “I don’t know what that means, Daddy.” And Stephen broke character, and a million ovaries cried out and then were silent.
DEAR INTERNET GODS, I HAVE NEVER NEEDED A CLIP MORE THAN I DO NOW. I WILL WATCH POP-UP VIDEO ADS UNTIL THE END OF MY DAYS IF YOU WILL ONLY GRANT ME THIS, JUST THIS ONE THING.
I direct you to thebellewitch’s comment, in which she posts that particular Moment of Zen.
I wonder if that was his actual daughter?
It was! She later appeared with him at an awards show, having clearly grown up from being that small redheaded child.
Hey babies https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLyu1DiXN00
YOU GUYS YOU GUYS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwNEIPBt5qE
and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLyu1DiXN00
I don’t know where the whole clip is but these are adoooorrable.
Yes, those. Those are the things.
I remember this!! so great. though it reminds me that my greatest fear about this article was that his kids would find it and send me an angry email. “Back off our dad, you creepy 30-something.”
That paragraph about racism and misogyny got me. Damn.
I didn’t know before this minute that I wanted Stephen Colbert to be my dad, but now I want that more than anything in the world
I just spent some time imagining my own dad and Stephen Colbert in a My Two Dads-like scenario, and they fought so much but always came out of it smiling (because no one on earth can resist the wattage of Stephen Colbert’s smile when he turns it on you full-force), and sometimes they would cook together and fuss at each other in pretend-irritated but really affectionate ways… long story short, regular reality is just not as good as that world in my head any more so I am going there forever.
You just wrote dad fanfic. Dadfic??? XD
Really excited to join a My Two Dadfics community.
I think we’d do a lot of goofy dancing to “The King Of Glory.”
I…either never knew about this or forgot about it (although the latter seems pretty impossible). I just…this is the most Catholic thing I have ever seen in popular culture. Thanks!
It’s just a taste of a weird outtake at the end of an episode of Strangers With Candy, which is hilarious given how non-Catholic friendly that show is.
It’s super delightful and will never not make me laugh.
Isn’t it?! I think the first time I saw him do it was either when he was still on TDS or maybe on The Report?
I think the Catholic Throwdown https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9zeYyOdBU0 with Jack White is the MOST Catholic thing I’ve ever seen on TV. There’s a “Be Not Afraid” singalong!
You’re right! That is definitely the most Catholic thing ever seen on television. Ugh it kills me as a former altar girl that I couldn’t remember the name for the monstrance.
Also, Jack White grew up Catholic? The more you know…
(A) that is awesome, I had not seen it, thanks, but also (B) I initially misread your comment about Jack White as Jack Black, and I’m not sure which would be weirder to see in this context. No, nevermind… this with Jack White is weirder.
This song, minus the goofy dancing, was actually the Communion chant at our church’s Sunday evening service several weeks ago. I couldn’t stop laughing.
if Stephen Colbert were my dad, his adherence to the monstrously misogynistic and homophobic Catholic church would be a constant rift between us, making me question all of his apparent gentleness and understanding. “dad,” I would ask, “why do you belong to a church that thinks women need to beg forgiveness for having abortions, and that thinks itself generous for temporarily deciding it will extend that forgiveness, as if it were needed, as if it were theirs to give? do you not see that your membership in the institution is a tacit endorsement of its policies, even if you personally disagree with them? do they deserve someone like you saying anything good about them, with how they behave?”
if there’s an interview out there where Colbert explains this I’d love to see it, it’s a constant dark cloud in my mind when I think about him and I don’t want that stain
Maybe for reasons similar to why I still consider myself a feminist despite the really incredibly shitty things that White Feminists have done since women’s rights were a thing?
feminism is not a formalized, hierarchical institution of oppression, misogyny, colonialism and thought control. the comparison is not apt. I assume you’re not a member of any specific feminist organizations that do incredibly shitty things? I hear there are some Christian denominations that aren’t monstrous. there’s a whole buffet of religious offerings out there that try to be modern.
Heck, I’m not a member of any organizations (feminist or otherwise) at all.
there’s a whole buffet of religious offerings out there that try to be modern.
Yes, there are. And Catholicism is one of those–lots of progressive and rebellious folks in Catholicism these days.
I’m not Catholic. I’m not Christian. I don’t believe in any sort of god or higher power at all. But I know there are a lot of good people all over the world (here on the Toast, even!) who find peace and joy in their religions that I, personally, find a little icky. And talking to people about their faith is a good way to understand them. Asking them questions that are loaded with accusatory statements and words like “monstrous,” um…not so much? And suggesting that someone should (or could) just drop their faith and go shopping for something else is a little, well, unrealistic at best.
so if a nonreligious person forbade women from using birth control and seeking abortions, demanded they beg forgiveness (and claimed he had the right to give it to her, and that it was a temporary window that she could even get it) if they did and insisted constantly that homosexuality was evil, could we call that behavior monstrous then? do they get a pass? call a monster a monster. I don’t “disagree” with being told fucking other dudes is evil. I’m not willing to be civil about it.
and I’m pretty sure it’s pretty common for people to trade up religions. it’s kind of the principle on which Catholicism is based, that people will abandon whatever heathen traditions they follow and come into the fold where they’ll either stop taking the pill or be damned fore’er. or is the principle on which Catholicism is based that women are brood mares filling the quiver? it’s so hard to pick a travesty.
It sounds like this is a pretty fraught topic for you, and I apologize for opening up a possible tender spot with what I intended to be a flip comment. I think we’re probably not gonna meet halfway on this, so let’s just shake hands over our fence, here, yeah?
I guess. you might want to examine your feminism if you’re not horrified by this shit. I hope if anybody in your life needs reproductive health care the constant battering of the religious right with Francis right up at the forefront hasn’t rendered it illegal in your area, because that -is- the world we’re heading toward (well, if you’re American, at least).
you might want to examine your feminism
You might wanna examine your high horse.
Has it occurred to you to stop talking down to people on this topic? Telling people to “examine” their feminism when they urge you to try to consider talking to people about their faith instead of just being accusatory is not a great way to act.
as I asked above and for which I got no answer, think you’d be talking this way if she were defending a secular institution with similar policies to the Catholic church re: women owning their own lives?
But it’s not a secular institution, so people belong to it for a variety of reasons that don’t apply to secular institutions. Which doesn’t have to make its positions any less abhorrent to anyone, of course! But if you believe in the theology or are spiritually Catholic and NOT spiritually other-things, well, that’s one reason you’d stay even if you didn’t agree with all the things (also: there are TOO MANY THINGS, which means pretty much NO ONE agrees with all of it).
There’s also a deeply Catholic tradition of forming one’s own conscience, which kind of trumps everything, and that’s another way/reason that people stay.
fundamental disagreement, I am utterly unwilling to forgive a group for behaving in an unethical fashion just because it’s nonsecular. they have a right to be unethical, but I’m not going to sit here and go “well, it’s okay that they want to send me to pray away the gay camp and that they’re into forcing women to become mothers, because a god told them to.”
it’s particularly frustrating, as Stephen Fry once shouted, when they’re simultaneously claiming to be the font of all morality.
I don’t think you have to forgive anyone you don’t want to forgive.
I’m uncomfortable with holding individuals (Stephen Colbert, or regular commenters here at The Toast) accountable for the actions/beliefs of a church of over a billion people. It’s fine to ask “how does this jive with your progressive views, personally?” but expecting individual people to answer for entire groups or institutions or the church hierarchy (which is slow to change, if ever, and doesn’t always listen to laypeople, which I think everyone commenting here would agree is A PROBLEM) is troubling to me. (I know everyone chimed in willingly to this conversation, and they can always stop replying if they feel uncomfortable.) I think a number of people have tried to answer your original question for Colbert, and you don’t agree with their responses, which is totally valid and fair, but I’m not sure what else anyone can say or do here!
I’m not holding him responsible for them; I’m just weary at the cognitive dissonance of it all and feel that, in publicly talking about his religion, he’s tacitly endorsing all these policies I find so monstrous. even if he disagrees with them! that’s the thing about institutions, you can’t take the good without the bad.
but yes, you’re right, this was never going to end in me being satisfied. I think I may have interpreted the tone of CleverManka’s first post as somewhat snarkier than she meant it and snapped back a bit.
Well, I wouldn’t presume to speak for Colbert, but I think he is, like a lot of people in a lot of complicated and messy situations, all about the contradictions because he kind of has to be. He’s far from a perfect progressive, if such a thing exists, but I believe he’s made his political positions pretty clear. I know a LOT of Catholics like him, so I guess that’s why it doesn’t really faze me. (And I think we take the good with the bad all the time, not just with our big institutions. Like, I love my alma mater and also recognize the damage it’s done to the city and community of Baltimore, that sort of thing. I love my in-laws and yet hanging out with them for long stretches gives me a twitch below my left eye.)
also, as someone with a really complicated relationship with the Catholic Church, I AM NOT SATISFIED EITHER, so there’s that, if it makes you feel any better.
Also, I think there are things about one’s identity that we don’t explicitly choose, but it still formed a big part of who we are, so we find a way to reconcile it with our values and intellect, making it our own thing.
Like, I am and always will be marked by SOUTHERNESS in a way I did not at any point explicitly opt into. And the only reason the South didn’t rack up the same body count as the Church is because it’s not been around as long. And I abhor the sentimentalized bigotry of the south, and the anti-intellectualism, and the insularity, and the whole chip we’ve got on our shoulder, but I AM southern. Just as I didn’t opt into it, I can’t opt out.
But I can be jokey and unapologetic about being from the south, plus have affection for the cool things about that heritage, while simultaneously pissing alllll over the Confederate flag, the entrenched homophobia, the megachurches,the really bizarre classism that no one will admit is a thing, and also chicken gizzards. Fuck chicken gizzards.
Yes! Yes to all of this! Denying these different, problematic identities that make up one’s sense of self just seems…wrong, somehow. And yes to the kind of Southernness you describe. And you can’t logic it away either, even if you want to, despite what crawkill is trying to claim. I’m a Tex-pat, raised Catholic, and this stuff just isn’t going away. It made me who I am! So I’m unapologetic and open about it all (while simultaneously critiquing it).
Thanks for the wonderful post, by the way!
Thank you for the phrase Tex-pat! I can very much relate.
Thank you for mentioning the “forrming one’s own conscience” thing! I tell people that growing up Catholic made me into the progressive soul I am today, and it’s largely because of that tradition!
I did notice that practically everybody I worked with in my old ACLU job had gone to Catholic school. (Though I’m not sure if they turned out that way because they developed their consciences there, or if they just became rebel non-conformists because they hated it so much…)
Probably both. That’s pretty much how the Protestant Reformation happened.
Oh, it’s both. (Said as somebody who was very devout growing up, but also a born feminist and serious oddball in my Catholic community). You tend to get a passionate sense of compassion and social justice, and a desire to let people live their own lives. And people who never liked it at all –well, there’s never been a better background to rebel from, I gotta say.
Yeah. I’m not a religious person but I come from a very Catholic family and the church means a lot of different things to different people. And to me it mostly means my very devout grandmother who worked the polls and boycotted companies that mistreated their workers and embodied the idea of grace and good works.
Aaaaand then I got distracted from my actual point (sorry!), which I do think is an apt comparison. It’s a way I identify myself. It’s a part of how I see, feel, and understand myself. Just like I probably would if I was a member of a church/denomination.
He’s been talking a lot about his faith recently, and a sentiment that keeps coming up is that he feels pretty strongly that he can love his church and still disagree with it.
but to repeat what I asked earlier, does an institution like Catholicism deserve someone as good-hearted as Colbert saying positive things about it? how is that not mischanneled energy?
I should note I feel this way about all religions, but I admit I find Catholics with their fixation on theology and explicit dogmas particularly exasperating. maybe I wouldn’t be so irritated by the theology if the dogmas weren’t so benightedly conservative, but we live in the world we live in, and the US government is going to shut down in fifteen days because women getting an abortion is just too much for half of the country to handle. when you spout anti-abortion rhetoric from a literal pulpit around which journalists for some reason crowd, you need to own the consequences of your words. as Trump can’t say Mexicans are rapists then declaim a beating done in his name, neither can Franky say women need to beg forgiveness for owning their sex lives and then declaim the trite-but-true war on women.
So the Catholic church is staggeringly big and staggeringly old. There are 1,200,000,000+ Catholics in the world, and there have been popes for 2,000 years. Catholicism isn’t a hive mind–it’s a *lot* of different people from different parts of the world coming together to try to do what they think is right and serve God and Jesus the best way they know. And within the church, there are probably 1,200,000,000+ opinions about what that “best way” is. For me, I would rather fight to improve something I love than say “Well, you do bad things, so I can’t associate with you any more.” And for all the Church’s problems, it’s still trying to improve the world. For example, Pope Francis *finally* telling the church that it needs to refocus on the poor of the world and that everyone needs to get their act together about the environment.
As to one point in particular–“does an institution like Catholicism deserve someone as good-hearted as Colbert saying positive things about it? how is that not mischanneled energy?” Does an institution like America deserve someone good-hearted saying positive things about it? Does an institution like the Democratic Party deserve someone good-hearted saying positive things about it? (I don’t know your politics, but assuming that you vote Democrat, I’m sure you have at least one point of contention that you wish the Democratic Party would jettison from the platform)
One of the things I’ve always believed, being Catholic, is that every single person is flawed, and I personally have always extrapolated this to institutions. We’re all sinners, we’re gonna do things that are wrong (intentionally or no), and when we congregate in large numbers we’re gonna do things that are wrong even more dramatically. So that’s the perspective I’m coming from. It’s not a question of deserving, because everyone and everything human is gonna mess up. But we have the ability to make it better.
I have to live somewhere on the planet. I have, in fact, made active efforts to leave the United States in the past, which fell through for health disaster-related reasons. it’s very difficult to opt out of a nation. it’s very easy to opt out of a religion. you can’t compare choosing to hang out with a bunch of wizards who want women subjugated and queers vanished with having to accept compromises in government. you don’t have to accept compromises in religion. you can just…not do it, and it’s out of your life. if you feel an aching need to believe in something, there are many, many others out there, many of them very similar to Catholicism minus the openly authoritarian misogyny, and they don’t require green cards to participate.
But “opting out” of a religion (assuming I wanted to) doesn’t make it go away. All of the people who are trying to make the Church cling to the policies that we both disagree with would still be there and still be fighting to limit reproductive rights. The only difference between me leaving the church is that the church would be ever-so-slightly more to the right. Catholicism doesn’t work like voting rights–if I say “I’m a Catholic, even though I disagree with their stance on reproductive issues,” it does not give more power to the Vatican’s reproductive rights agenda. It *takes away from it.* I’m saying “I’m Catholic, and a lot of Catholics don’t want this, this is wrong, stop.”
I’m pretty sure you just made my point? it doesn’t matter that we have relative saints (perhaps not the best word to use in this context) like Colbert in the Catholic church. the institution itself has terrible, terrible policies, and like it or not, those policies are a -substantial- political force in the world, even if the individuals don’t agree with them.
I want to live in a world where I don’t have to hear people cheer because a Pope said women can be forgiven for having abortions. I want to live in a world where people are shocked that he could say such an awful thing. I was reading the other day–trying to remember where, think it was one of Planned Parenthood articles–that the new anti-abortion narrative isn’t that women who have them are evil, but that women are dainty, helpless things who need to be -protected- from those bad, bad abortions. the PP hearings actually used the word “abortion survivor.” I saw fucking red. Francis is absolutely hammering on that narrative, and it makes me sick to hear the reply be “the Church is liberalizing!” no it isn’t. it’s just changing the tone in pursuit of exactly the same political agenda: the dehumanization and disempowerment of women.
Clearly we’re going to disagree on the method to bring about this world, which we both want. I think it can best be done by reform within the church (see point above on an institution being composed of individuals), and if I’m understanding you correctly, you think it can best be done by people leaving Catholicism and converting to other doctrines. We won’t see eye to eye on that, but millions of people are already leaving the Church, and millions of people are already working within it! Regardless of the method, there’s a lot of us out there that are working for change, and that’s got to count for something.
“there’s a lot of us out there that are working for change, and that’s got to count for something. ”
I don’t know– a lot of my extended family is Catholic and feels the same way, but I think, at some point, you have to consider whether change is realistically ever going to happen within an organization.
If you look at opinion polls (going back many years now), the vast majority of US Catholics use birth control, and most are pretty far to the left on social issues (pro-choice, pro-marriage equality, etc.) But I haven’t seen any evidence whatsoever to suggest that that’s had any influence on the church’s official stance on those issues, or that those positions are likely to change in the foreseeable future.
Pope Francis has taken some admirable positions (about the environment, etc.), but he certainly hasn’t indicated that there will be any changes to the church’s fundamental views on abortion, etc.
I certainly don’t think that everyone of conscience necessarily has to leave the church, but I do think it’s imperative to perform a higher level of self-examination when you belong to a group that wields so much political power. The Catholic church is also fairly unique among other denominations, in the degree to which it’s enmeshed in the U.S. health care system (e.g., being the only provider in many parts of the country).
Change happens all the time within institutions, even the church (though some would like to claim it never changes). Will big things that SHOULD change change within, say, our lifetimes? eh, doubtful. But changing individual people’s minds and hearts, not get all cheesy, isn’t worthless either. Trying to make a space more welcoming for everyone also has merit.
What’s interesting to me about the whole Francis thing is whether or not he can really change the conversation and emphasize different issues without actually changing anything else. I think he has changed the conversation in/about the church, and Stephen Colbert seems to think so, too. Some people think not. But it’s intriguing to me, even if it’s also not enough.
I’m also all for self-examination, but I wouldn’t assume people in the church (or people in this thread) aren’t already doing that.
Agreed! I have strong feelings on this issue because a woman of my grandmother’s generation in my family was told by a doctor that she would be putting her life in danger if she had another child, so she should be using what contraceptives were available, and by her priest that it was evil to attempt prevent pregnancy … and as predicted by her doctor, she didn’t survive pregnancy again. That’s a pretty dark mark for any institution to cary, but it’s also a personal choice that had personal consequences. So while I do think that priest and the structure that gave him moral authority to tell someone to do something that was basically suicide are mixed with some good legacies: schools (not the ones meant to Christianize Native people though) and alms come to mind, I personally would opt out of participating in that power structure in any way.
And yet, like Mrs_Peel points out, there are a lot of places where the Catholic church is intimately inmeshed in our health care system and services. For example, in my fairly large metropolis (800k ish) there is only one major hospital that is not religiously affiliated, which because my mother was a high risk pregnancy, she considered, because, having been raised Catholic, she did not trust a Catholic institution to put saving the life of the mother ahead of saving the life of the infant, which was her personal priority structure going in to the delivery. So! If the Catholic Church is the only game in town for certain services, their ideological underpinning becomes of concern to us all.
I’m not anti-religious by any stretch, good things and bad things have come of religions of all stripes, but I do think that it’s important to be outspoken when they are abusing their power or covering up issues that need to be dealt with. Because a lot of the abuses happen right under our noses (see for example, the Magdalene Laundries, which were basically labor camps for “fallen” women; the last of these was shut down in 1996, and there has been a £50 million compensation scheme for survivors, to which the Catholic Church itself has refused to contribute) and we’re all responsible for putting a stop to those kinds of abuses.
But! If working for reform from within the church is your personal solution, than by all means, do. It could sincerely use quite a bit of reform.
“But ‘opting out’ of a religion (assuming I wanted to) doesn’t make it go away”
As a practical matter, I’d note that a lot of Catholic churches and schools have closed in the cities where I’ve lived (e.g., Cleveland), due to declining membership. A lot of dioceses around the US are also in fairly dire financial straits, due to a combination of decreased tithing and paying out sexual abuse settlements. So voting with your feet, refusing to make financial contributions to the church, etc., can potentially have some real-world effects at least on the local level.
Addressing the lobbying power of the Catholic church as an institution is, of course, a lot more complicated (e.g., due to 501(c)(3) status, large-scale university and hospital systems, etc.)
(P.S. I don’t know if “dioceses” is a real word. The Google told me it was, but it looks funny).
I believe that technically, “diocese” is both singular and plural, with “dio-CIS” as the singular, and “dio-CESE” as the plural, but I am perhaps old-fashioned.
And when I say perhaps, I mean that I’m definitely old-fashioned.
Not to reopen this discussion from yesterday, but “it’s very easy to opt out of a religion” is not necessarily true.
1 – Catholicism doesn’t really let people leave. Once you’re baptized, you’re “on the books” forever. Obviously you can choose not to go to Mass ever again, but they still count you as one of their 1.2 billion members. The Pope will still pray for you every day, even if you think his chair has an inverted cross on the back and he pisses on it during his dark rituals.
2 – For those that do “leave” the Catholic Church, it is not always an easy decision. In fact, for some, the loss of faith or the loss of organized religion – which are two different things, of course – is simply devastating. Sure, you might have been able to opt out and leave (if you did – I did not see upthread where you mentioned once being religious) easily, but I think if I lost my faith tomorrow I would feel tremendously lost and hurt and heartbroken. To say that it’s such an easy decision is demeaning to those who love loving their God, and particularly for converts like me, who actively chose their religions.
I, like a couple others upthread, sense that religion or religious people have harmed you or people you love in the past, and I understand the place of anger you are coming from. I converted at 18, and my mother’s reaction was so violently angry (at first) and protractedly resentful (I am 29 now and not much has improved) that I really do get it. But I hope you will be willing to consider the idea that Faith – whatever your issues with organized religion and/or extremists – does so much good for the majority of the planet’s human inhabitants.
Have you read any of the new Convert series? They’re not only about western religions, and I’ve found them provoking and tender-hearted and comforting.
As for point 1) the Church does cast people out, since there are certain “sins” that merit an automatic excommunication (Latae sententiae), which category includes having an abortion or causing physical violence to the pope or throwing away consecrated Eucharistic bread. So it’s not impossible to get dropped from the rosters of people in good standing. I think converting to another religion also is grounds for an automatic excommunication under the clause against apostasy.
It is true though that even though excommunication does prevent you from participating eucharist, you’re still technically a member of the church and expected to attend mass (which happened in my mother’s parish, when a guy was under censure after his wife left him [he granted her a divorce to do so] and yet he still showed up at church every week even and sat in the last seat on the very back pew, although he couldn’t take communion and no one would talk to him).
But for fairness sake, I’d say that leaving is a hard decision for some, especially because of family ties, and an easy decision for others; yes, you will still get prayed for in the same way that the Mormons will still sign you up to go to their heaven. That’s just one of those things that ex-catholics (and all us abortion-having, free-wheeling sinners) have to deal with.
Colbert was born Catholic, so I expect it’s part of who he is in a way that he has to be honest about if he wants to be true to himself, which seems to be his thing now that he’s not in character anymore. But he’s found a way to be Catholic while still being pro gay, pro gender diversity, pro ordination of women, pro conception, pro abortion rights, and he’s not alone. And he’s not afraid to make the church a subject of satire when it does harm. I don’t what more anyone could possibly expect.
I also wonder and worry a lot about what happens to any institution when all the progressives leave. I don’t think anyone should force themselves to stay anywhere they don’t want to be, but I think if one CAN and WANTS TO stay and try to change things from within, it’s neither a pointless nor hopeless endeavor.
(Reading this thread incredibly late)
YES. I deeply believe that progressive people can change religious institutions from within, and that abandoning religion to the fundamentalists is a terrifying prospect. People do change and evolve. (My Anglican grandfather went from believing that female ordination was wrong to marrying another priest in his lifetime)
Yeeeah, I quit a religion because it was insufficiently feminist so I know of what you speak, but one of my very gay friends is a devout and extremely thoughtful Catholic who finds the good in his church and fights for change from within, so I think this is one of those things where reasonable people can disagree on the best course of action.
I know people do that, but it feels distinctly like Stockholm syndrome to me.
K, I’m gonna stick with “Reasonable people can disagree” though.
Hey, this is definitely the sort of comment I would have insta-deleted if it came through moderation, and I am not deleting it because you are an established commenter, but a few of your comments on this thread have been alternately really aggressive and really patronizing towards very polite dissenting commenters, and the Stockholm syndrome reference is definitely over my own personal line, so I would just like you to keep that in mind, and probably disengage.
Because in any religion, there can be a huge gap between the practice of the faith, the political power and hierarchy associated with it, and the religious ritual. People are drawn to very different spiritual practices, or to none at all, and often people who abhor the politics and certain doctrines of the Catholic Church just can’t shake the feeling that the Mass and the liturgy is the right way (for them) to worship. Belief/non-belief is extremely complicated. The Catholic Church (in practice) has a really wide array of people in it, and many different traditions. Lots of Catholics disagree very strongly with the hierarchy and the conservative elements within the Church, and they work from the inside to try to change things. Other people find that they can’t deal with the frustration, and leave and agitate for change from the outside. Still others are stuck somewhere in between.
As someone has said elsewhere on this thread, Stephen Colbert has stated (a lot!) that you can love the Church (the Mass, the people, the good stuff and the emphasis on helping others), while disagreeing with it. And many good people feel the same way. This shit is complicated, and painting every Catholic as a villain for not ditching their faith completely (or saying that just moving to a liberal faith tradition is the answer), is a seriously short-sighted thing to do.
Thank you so much for writing this. I just read the comments in this thread, and as a practicing Catholic who firmly supports pro-choice, pro-gay, pro-women efforts, it was extremely disheartening to have been dismissed as an uncaring person who follows the word of a bunch of wizards. We are human with free will and failings. We as a church contain multitudes. There are very, very few of my practicing family and friends who follow dogma to the letter. We are continuously hopeful that Pope Francis and the Vatican continue to move towards the path of equality and love. Jesus Christ himself just had two commandments: Love God, and Love your neighbor as yourself. So that’s how I reconcile the law of my faith with my faith itself.
Right? This hit right in my sore spot yesterday. I currently describe myself as “raised Catholic” or “non-practicing Catholic,” and I got married last year by an Episcopalian priest. I see myself as balancing on a borderline, unwilling to let go completely, made anxious by the thought of going to Mass but missing the liturgy and the singing, not quite a believer anymore but no atheist either. Converting over to Episcopalianism doesn’t seem quite right at the moment either. Just leaving Catholicism (or any religion, for that matter) because of all the bad stuff isn’t quite as easy as it seems from the outside.
Also, you can be angry at the history and the hierarchy from the inside, too. My mother and I had a tipsy shouting session where we got mad at the hierarchy and the dogma together, but you know what, she still considers herself Catholic. Sometimes when I go home I see library books about feminist and liberation theology. She walked out of Mass one day after a conservative, haranguing political sermon. My grandfather boycotted his church for years (the church he raised the money to build), after the priest told my grandmother that she was sinning for using birth control (I think this continued until that priest left the parish).
All this to say: rock on with your liberal Catholic ways! Catholics are, in many ways, the most hopeful and least fearful of Christian denominations. I think it’s why so many people stay, in the hopes of creating change. And I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Even if it’s impossible…at least St. Jude is on your side!
Oof. I’m….really uncomfortable with the way this whole conversation is going. I just typed and deleted a whole novel full of opinions and ums and kind ofs and likes and I don’t really want to dip my oar in to this religion discussion, but I’d just like to note that reading this thread is actually making me anxious. This is not the kind of site where respectful responses and/or a polite request to just drop the whole thing leads to personal attacks, and this is verging really close to that for me. I really cherish the kind, respectful atmosphere in the comments at the toast (it is pretty much the only comments I read), and it is surprisingly painful to me to see that…not happening here.
So sorry you felt uncomfortable, and noted! will be watching this thread closely.
Stephen Colbert is very talented in that he manages to be both “daddy, but like in a weird sex way” and “daddy, but like your actual dad”.
Not gonna say how old I am, but if Stephen Colbert were my dad, he started way too young.
Not gonna say how old I am, but I’m older than Stephen Colbert 🙁 So I’d definitely prefer a What if Stephen Colbert Were Your Boyfriend version, please.
I once sold some toys to Stephen Colbert, presumably for his actual children, at a kids boutique in Boston! This was when he was still on the Daily Show, like maybe 2003? He paid with cash instead of a credit card and was wearing sunglasses so then I had to be a dork like, “Are you Stephen Colbert? I love your show.” My coworker didn’t know who he was but she said that he seemed tickled by the compliment.
I’m on a recent binge of discovering American late night tv and that whole fake news thing. I kind of haven’t done anything else these past three weeks but catching up and I’m basically a mess. So many ugly emotions. WHY DID NO ONE TELL ME ABOUT THIS?! HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THEFEELS AND THE AWESOMENESS?
It’s after midnight, I’m home after meeting friends, whom I told in gross detail about how much I cried about the Biden Interview, and now I’m back, The Toast has somehow read my soul again, and I’ve cried yet again and I’m going to re-read it tomorrow when I’m awake.
me too, dude. I’ve been making the Late Show appointment television, which, I think that’s the first time since Angel went off the air ten years ago.
Aw, I got a reply and all – you’re so kind!
I just watch an unhealthy amount of TV shows for my doctoral thesis (my primary source list is currently narrowed down to “anything with robots in it”), but I haven’t done appointment television for years. I binge, and I squeeze in an episode of Star Trek whenever I can, but my schedule is highly irregular. Also, I generally lack patience for party politics, and I find most satire grating and uncomfortable. I was never an infotainment person at all.
I don’t know why I’m suddenly so *interested*! I’ve subscribed to youtube channels! I’ve never subscribed to youtube channels before!
It’s nice though.
And your text is even better when I’m reading it properly awake.
One of my favourite ways to cheer up when I’m feeling blue is to watch the clip of Stephen Colbert and Jon Stewart play the alphabet game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkirEElQKvo
Thank you for this.
I read a thing in the paper this AM about a recording for a National Anthem montage that he did with a couple local Washingtonians and apparently Colbert took the bass line while the locals took the melody, and I thought “he really DOES sing the harmony!”
yes! I know this seems like a silly list invented straight from my wishful thinking, but it was bolstered by a LOT of YouTube consumption. He did an NPR interview once where he sang a bit from lots of different songs, and he mentioned that he felt like any time he sang the national anthem he had to automatically slip into the harmony.
I wonder if this is just a thing that happens naturally if you have a good ear for a tune and you grow up singing in church because I used to make up harmonies for everything we sang in church.
I mean, it seemed totally in character, it was just a nice synchrous moment between my local paper and the Toast.
I am an alto-ish and I also played the viola. One time I had a solo that involved the melody and in rehearsal, the conductor said “if I were going to write a harmony for your part, what you just sang is exactly what I would have written, but you’re supposed to be singing the melody here”. So, yeah, sometimes it just happens if it’s what you’re used to! But it is nice to have good harmonizers around, they make everything sound richer.
“The first time you fell in love and got your heart broken, Stephen Colbert would make you laugh, which would make you angry. You’d tell your best friend that he just didn’t get it—maybe dads never do. Later, you’d run into your ex, who’d look hunted. There would be dark circles under their eyes and claw marks on their hands. “This giant fucking eagle scratches at my window every night,” they’d tell you in a hollow voice. “It just sits there, watching me. I haven’t slept in weeks. No one believes me.””
THIS.
As with so many other posters…any relationship in which I might, hypothetically, have ever imagined standing with Colbert is not filial. No, indeed. But kudos on the staff writers thing, which I am ashamed to say I have never thought to look up.
OMG hi!
Yeah, the staff writer thing was brought to my attention by Nicole, I doubt I would have looked it up either, but a…I want to say, Variety? blogger did a short piece on it recently.
“Nowadays, even though you aren’t really sure how religious you still are, you still sit right up front at Mass on every visit home, singing along with the harmony, because Stephen Colbert always sings the harmony, and because you’re in your twenties now, and his beard has turned white, and you know that one day he’s going to die.”
I gasped, audibly, in a crowded library, and my eyes filled with tears.
(Decidedly Not Thinking About the fact that the last time I facetimed my dad, I noticed his beard was much more frosty than normal)
yeah both my parents have just started abruptly looking Properly Old. It’s jarring, and I don’t even like them.
"Nowadays, even though you aren’t really sure how religious you still are, you still sit right up front at Mass on every visit home, singing along with the harmony, because Stephen Colbert always sings the harmony, and because you’re in your twenties now, and his beard has turned white, and you know that one day he’s going to die."
I gasped, audibly, in a crowded library, and my eyes filled with tears.
(Decidedly Not Thinking About the fact that the last time I facetimed my dad, I noticed his beard was much more frosty than normal)
yeah both my parents have just started abruptly looking Properly Old. It's jarring, and I don't even like them.
“Stephen Colbert always sings the harmony…”
Aaaand that is whenI cry at work. Damn. Now I realize that my dad is a little bit Stephen Colbert and I should appreciate him properly.
Dang, I was hoping the word after “If Stephen Colbert were your…” was going to be “boyfriend”, not DAD. In the wrong demographic for him to be my dad, but the right one for a boyfriend. Rather, gentleman caller.
Really excited to join a My Two Dadfics community.
(Reading this thread incredibly late)
YES. I deeply believe that progressive people can change religious institutions from within, and that abandoning religion to the fundamentalists is a terrifying prospect. People do change and evolve. (My Anglican grandfather went from believing that female ordination was wrong to marrying another priest in his lifetime)
Except, Stephen Colbert, and bears, are mortal enemies. Like Peter, and the giant chicken.