#Ferguson (really looking forward to when we don’t have to start our day with this hashtag, as are the people in Ferguson, I imagine)
Completely into “How to Be Polite”:
Most people don’t notice I’m polite, which is sort of the point. I don’t look polite. I am big and droopy and need a haircut. No soul would associate me with watercress sandwiches. Still, every year or so someone takes me aside and says, you actually are weirdly polite, aren’t you? And I always thrill. They noticed.
A trustworthy friend is evangelizing about this recipe, so.
John Leavitt sent me this thing on gay birds and it made me so happy:
However, if you look at a male and female swan necking with each other and say “aww, they love each other and they’re gonna have babies!” and then look at a pair of male swans doing the same thing and say “THEY’RE JUST BROS. BROS RAISING CHICKS TOGETHER. ONE HAD SEX WITH A GIRL ONCE SO IT’S NOT GAY,” I say… that’s a pretty unbalanced definition.
(In other words, nature doesn’t queerbait.)
Anyhow, when I talk about homosexual behavior here, I include behavior that’s used to attract a mate and/or maintain a pair bond as well as directly sexual behaviors like mounting.
It’s important to note the distinction between gay behaviors and gay individuals, as well. I can’t ask a bird what her sexual orientation is, right? All I can do is observe her behavior and say “those particular behaviors are pretty gay, Meredith.” To which Meredith responds, “Yes, Koryos, you sly little hoopoe, but remember that we can’t apply the human definition of orientation to an animal and vice versa.”
How to build a feminist workplace.
deleted comment of the day brings me such joy:
I hate him completely already, please break up with him.
If you are in LA on Friday, you better be going to this:
US maternity leave is horseshit, just a reminder.
(Straight) women who get shit from trolls online talk about/with their partners’ exposure/awareness:
“Part of hating someone on the internet is avoiding thinking of them as a real person who is loved by others and has a full life,” he says. “If her trolls started to think of me as real, and our relationship as real, then how could she be a disgusting harpy who could never get laid? How could she be a wanton slut addicted to the free birth control that keeps her from constantly being impregnated by random dudes?”
I really do think that unmoderated open comment sections are a moral wrong, and a shitty thing to do to your writers. I love you guys, and I think we have a good thing going here, and this works for our space, but COMMENTS as a THING are an abomination. Down with free speech.
Ah, the comma ellipsis. When a single form of punctuation just won’t convey the breathless anticipation you simply must instill in your reader. Yes, Nicole and Mallory carefully chose the name “Intense Debate” for their commenting system that they built themselves,,,,but what does it mean? One man tells us his unsolicited opinion.
I want to see what other truth bombs this guy will drop on us. “You call it FACE book but your profile picture doesn’t have your face in it! How can you call it your FACE book then, huh?!??!” Or “what do you mean, word PRESS? Your words are all neatly separated!”
IT’S NOT EVEN A BOOK!
“How can you call this site a ‘tumbler’ when I don’t see any backflips or semi-previous rocks being polished??”
“Your site doesn’t produce warm bread with a slight crunch for me something is not right here”
“Nor does it raise a cocktail in my direction and laud me with the wishes for long life and good health that I surely deserve.”
It’s funny how people LOSE THEIR MIND when they’re “denied the right” to post whatever awful thing pops into their head!
I misread this as “poops into their head”, I think it’s appropriate.
I like the “YOU ARE STIFLING ROBUST DEBATE AND CREATING AN ECHO CHAMBER” refrain as if opposing opinions and mansplaining and devil’s advocate horseshit are not constantly flung at us in the manner of rotten vegetables every moment of every day.
Exactly! I’ve always found that moderated comments are the best at encouraging debate because the lack of insults, threats and trolling means you can actually debate something. I mean, this very site had an article all about popular books people hated and there was no fighting in the comments! No insults! No threats! Just occasional polite disagreement! It was such a stark change from other sites.
This is the only site where I’ve learned things, found book recommendations and discovered links to interesting things in the comments. As far as I’m concerned the Toast comment section is made of gold and ice-cream.
Yes! I am a long time hater of free speech, I”m so glad this hatred has been legitimised in some way by this article. I will now proceed to read it.
Yes, too!
This:
“Banning comments—or moderating with an iron fist—is not squelching honest and open debate in the public sphere, anymore than refusing to publish every letter to the editor, unedited, in a print publication. Telling people to take their bullshit to Reddit is not a harbinger of Orwellian dystopia”.
Now I’m imagining Nicole’s IRON FIST in a velvet glove, of course.
I don’t usually add to link roundups, but the best thing I read yesterday (that was not about Ferguson) was Lindsay King-Miller’s piece Apologia: “Women who over-apologize don’t do it because we feel that our bodies and ideas and emotions are unworthy of the space they’re taking up, but because we have subconsciously absorbed the reality that other people do, and will treat us worse if we refuse to play along. It’s not an intentional attempt to undermine ourselves. It’s a flinch back from the fire.”
As an over-apologizer, can I just say, YES YES YES YES YES. (sorry for the repetition and the yelling.)
SO GOOD.
“i’ve taken to calling this kind of rhetoric “stop-hitting-yourself feminism.” It presumes that all the oppression women face is perpetuated solely by ourselves, and that if every woman (individually, not collectively) just decided to be confident and powerful, patriarchy and its effects would vanish overnight. In this worldview, the only reason any woman experiences sexism is that she simply hasn’t made the choice to shake it off.”
“stop-hitting-yourself feminism.”
Stealing this. Will credit you.
My boss does that, and also tends to say things like “I know I am/I’m being stupid, but…” But I’ve noticed that she most often does it when someone proposes something completely stupid. Like, “I’m sorry, this is probably me just being dumb, but it seems like…” and goes on to explain in detail why their proposal is the stupidest thing ever suggested by anyone in the history of ever.
DAMN that’s a good article. LKM is a gift.
Super into this piece. That quote is great.
That last line though… about how we need to stop hitting ourselves and start hitting back?? That made me want to run into the street and launch a revolution!
My husband (a most delightful feminist ally) is so confused by the whole over-apologizing thing–“You don’t have to say you’re sorry! You didn’t do anything wrong!” This is perfect for explaining it. Thank you! “Babe, I know I didn’t do anything wrong, but the one time I fail to apologize for something happening within my orbit that someone might not possibly be totally happy with, I swear it will come back and bite me in the ass.”
Is anyone going to the National Moment of Silence rallies that are being held today? Here is a list of how to get info for your geographic area: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y6bRJfwVL7JoJ…
I’m debating whether to go to the DC one. Any other DC Toasties planning on it?
ETA: Thanks to Hieu for linking to the list on Twitter.
No problem! I’m definitely going to go to the Bmore one. Am trying to circulate it around work right now.
I always go back and forth on rallies in general out of a general feeling of “they don’t really do anything.” For this one though I’m coming around on the feeling that it would be good to publicly show support for the residents of Ferguson and the families who have lost their loved ones bc of police brutality.
I want something to change as well. Still not sure if the rally will lead to that but I’m hoping to meet other people with ideas..
Thanks for sharing this. I will be at the Boston vigil.
I don’t think I can go tonight, but I am planning to go to the protest in front of the White House on Saturday.
My mother just reminded me we have plans to see a concert tonight so I won’t be at tonight’s event but I’m planning to go to Saturday’s march. Maybe see you there!
Ahh, I would go to the DC one but I have a thing at the same time. :-/
Also thinking about it, I’m pretty worn out on the DC “protest” scene right now though so whether I go is probably gonna depend on whether any of the half-dozen sad hippies who’ll actually show up are my hippies.
I’m going to try to make the downtown Seattle one.
I’m going to the vigil tonight at Bryan, Texas’ African American Museum. College Station Toastfolk, it’s at 500 E. Pruitt Street in Bryan, at 7 p.m.
1) I also hate free speech in the sense that “people can say whatever shit they want to hurt other individual people”, which is related to
2) That politeness article was wonderful and I really needed to read that today, and
3) Without wanting to be impolite, let’s just say that I’ve tried that one-pan pasta a few times–because everyone raves about it–and have been unimpressed.
I’m a librarian so I get all sorts of bent out of shape when people’s first amendment rights are trampled upon, but at the same time people who are saying things just to be contrary or are saying things that are flat out MEAN need to shut the hell up.
Part of the wonderfulness that is The Toast is the fact that the comments ARE monitored AND censored and it isn’t turning into a free for all of whatever that happened at other feminist websites I used to frequent.
Comment moderation is the best gift Nicole and Mallory could give us and the fantastic people who write here. I, for one, our misandrist overlords, etc.
cosigned so hard
HELL YES.
Moderated commenting: your moderators wade through piles of bullshit so you don’t have to.
Many thanks for the maternity leave article. I’ve been arguing with a dude over on the Atlantic about this, so it’s great context and background.
I feel like I found a) Mallory’s second job or b) her soulmate:WTF Renaissance
Falling for one of the perils of mixed media, Nadia had accidentally glued her hand to the side of her head.
I loved the How to Be Polite article. Especially this: “My ability to go to a party and speak to anyone about anything, to natter and ask questions, to turn the conversation relentlessly towards the speaker, meant that I was gathering huge amounts of information about other people.” Because nothing will turn me off a person faster than hearing them say “Oh, I can’t do small talk. I only want to talk about things that matter.” Well 1) fuck you for implying that people who’ve cultivated the practice of small talk (it is a precious skill I am telling you) don’t want to talk about “things that matter,” and 2) In a social situation where one is (at best) casually acquainted with most of the people present, talking about important issues is rude. When I am at my friend’s book release party, talking with her critique partners whom I’ve only met once before at her first book release party, the idea of discussing the most recent Israel/Palestine violence is so horrifically inappropriate I can’t even think about it without (literally) cringing.
I am now going to read everything else on that website that Paul Ford wrote.
I hate that shit, the “I only want to talk about important things” shit. Uh, if you meet someone for the first time, it’s super inappropriate to talk about World Events or Their Deepest Feelings or whatever, small talk is a really important skill and people are really, really uncomfortable when other people are bad at it, so stop railing against it, internet. Agh sorry this turned into a mini-rant, I just have a lot of OPINIONS and RAGE today (shocker, the world is going to hell).
THIS GIF IS EVERYTHING. (Your gifs usually are, how do you do that??)
Heeee! Thanks. I…spend A LOT of time on the internet and when I find a gif I like, I save it. My memory is highly visual, so it’s easy for me to remember which gifs I have and in what file they’re stored. It’s my superpower.
I want someone to show me a CleverManka superhero costume. Or do you have more than one, for differing moods/occasions?
TBH, I think my basic superhero costume would be an A-line shirt, camo cut-offs, and combat boots. Because that’s pretty much all I wear unless I’m at the office or a party. And sometimes, depending on the party…
We have to think about how to represent your wondrous Gif Deployer. You know, like Wonder Woman’s Lasso of Truth, or whatever it is. You need a cool Gif Deployer added to your costume. I shall let that idea percolate.
Whee! Lemme know what you come up with.
Also, people are important, and the little things that you learn about people through small talk are important, and really most opinions about “important things” are either bullshit or uninformed or echo-chambery (at least, based on my current collection of opinions about important things- I know some things about some issues, but not enough to actually be interesting, frankly, 95%+ of the time). Much, much less interesting than what someone did with their weekend or is making for dinner tonight or what they performed in their kindergarten talent show, which is much more likely to be uniquely them.
Yeah, guess what, conversation is a 2-way street and you have to ask questions about other people and listen to their answers, not just monologue at them. (hm, guess I have a lot of Feels about this too!)
Every time I hear someone go “Ugh, I hate small talk” I want to roll my eyes all the way into the back of my head. Look. There is nothing wrong with having polite discussion about inconsequential topics with people. It is a legit important social skill. It says “I see you are a person and I want to engage with you in a friendly manner without offending you.” It is a demonstration that you see them in a courteous light and wish them to do the same. It does not mean you are vapid or incapable of Deep Talking. It is just a way to grease the wheels of social interactions.
And secondly, look. Not every single conversation has to be about Things That Matter. The two spectrums of conversation are not Deep Important Topics and Teenagers Giggling About How Random And Weird They Are. Small talk is the conversational foreplay that leads into making friends and solid acquaintances. Vis:
“What a rainy night!” “Oh I know, I had such a hard time getting a cab/got soaked on my way to the car/forgot my umbrella and got so wet! How miserable.” “I’m hoping it clears up for this weekend! At least the forecast is good.” “I think it will! I hope so–I’m going to a picnic at The Park.” “Oh are you! That sounds like fun! I haven’t been on a picnic in years, but I think about it every pleasant Saturday we have!” “Yes, a group of my friends and I have potluck picnics once a month–we each bring a basket of something. This week I have to bring the fruit–grapes and pears.” “What a terrific idea! I hope the weather is lovely for you guys. Oh, excuse me, someone is calling me.”
Bam. Now you have a friendly face at the event and a precursor to a friend. Small talk is a wonder.
YES. And that’s the minimum result; at best, you get to hear about a movie in the park this weekend, or a new lunch place, or that there’s going to be construction on your route to the park or lunch. I pick up so much of my walking-around knowledge from small talk.
This is beautiful. I wish you could have all my conversations for me.
THE WEATHER. Perfect for every occasion! *tiny, jingoistic raindrop-with-a-maple-leaf-in-it medal: AWARDED*
I find that even the weather is no longer a safe topic, what with climate change and water shortages and all. I’m convinced that part of the success of reality TV is that it gives us a safe(r) water cooler topic.
Gah! I am definitely a big fan of random non-heavy Things That Don’t Matter conversation/chat with people/strangers/vague acquaintances — tell me all about the dog you just saw or what you had for lunch or your favorite movie or a childhood memory or literally _anything_ except the weather. Weather talk will make me seethe internally and attempt to end the conversation as quickly as common courtesy allows. (Note: This is likely because my definition of good weather and everyone else’s definition of good weather are total opposites, and anything above 60 degrees or too many glaringly sunny days in a row makes me intensely grumpy, and having Every. Single. Person. you encounter in a day chirp “Oh, it’s been just _gorgeous_ this week! I hope I can sneak out early and enjoy some sunshine! Don’t you wish you were outside right now?” makes me want to throttle them. If reverse SAD is a thing, then I definitely have a lifelong case of it. Summer bums me out like you wouldn’t believe. My tactic is generally to make a bland non-committal face at the person gushing about the weather, and then derail that conversational topic by bringing up a completely random bit of trivia or something equally unexpected.) ((This is also my oft-used tactic when asked how-are-you by strangers and/or people who don’t _really_ want a legitimate response to that question if I can’t honestly say that I’m doing great.)) (((This makes me sound horribly unpleasant and like I’m awful with people. I’m actually really great with people — strangers love me. And I like people. But people are _very_ tiring. I think the concept of “small talk” is off-putting to some people in a lot of ways because it often equates to forcing interaction with someone(s) when you really don’t want to deal with engaging with anyone, even on the most superficial levels, and I definitely feel that way about it in that sense — not all the time, but often enough to make it worth noting.
My dad is obsessed with weather and weather reports so I have been long trained in talking about the weather.
I remember reading a hilarious article once which said something like. “For all the much vaunted ability to connect and make friends through the internet, most online friendships seem to revolve around d discussing television programmes and other trivial topics, rather than offering important support.” Yes, hello, have you met people? This is how we work: we start off bonding over Buffy in the queue for ID cards in your first week at university and three years later that’s the person you call at 2am when you’ve just walked out on your partner.
(To be honest I’m not sure whether or not it did say “much vaunted” because I’ve just realised I’m not actually surely was “much vaunted” means. How does one vaunt?)
I don’t know, but I think you can do it in Europe.
And maybe you’ll learn about good picnic locations! Or have an opportunity to ask about an interesting-sounding dish that you’ve never had!
Here is the thing that I hate SO MUCH: When you approach a group of people talking (or even just two people!) and they don’t open up the circle to include you and tell you what they’re talking about. COME ON people. Just be polite. What do you, a grown person in a social situation, have to gain from excluding someone?
This happened to me so much in grad school that I now associate it especially with academics. Encounters with actual academics in a non-academic setting have not done much to give me a different opinion.
Oh man, I could write a book called Rude Things I Witnessed in Grad School
Chapter 1: People Not Seeing Other People As People
Chapter 2: Yelling At Other Grown-Ass Adults In A Public Place
Chapters 3 – 12: Passive Aggression
Chapter 13 – 17: Behaviors Witnessed While Working In Groups
Chapter 18: Do Not Make Me Have To Ask You Directly For The Money You Owe Me For Gas For Carting All You People Around Half The State
Appendix A: Actual Quotes From Readers’ Reports
Chapter 19: How Not To Explain Someone’s Own Research To Them
Chapters 20-100 Mansplaining
AUGH YES SO MUCH *shakes fiery fists of rage*
This has happened to me so much than whenever I’m in a group and someone joins in, I will immediately be the one to tell them what we’re discussing.
I’m in the “I hate small talk camp,” but only because I have some pretty intense social anxiety going on. I’m SO SCARED that there’s going to be an uncomfortable awkward silence or the person is going to decide I’m boring and run away.
I will say, though, that if I’m talking to someone who’s great at keeping the conversation flowing, I quite like small talk! I guess a more accurate statement for me is “I hate being the one who is responsible for keeping small talk going.”
solid advice from the politeness article: ask them about themselves. No silences ever.
“What do you do/what do you want to do” and “Do you have pets [or kids, whatever you prefer]” are my go-to questions. Works great.
There’s this thing in DC (and probably other busybody places, I don’t know) where among a certain set of residents, the question “What do you do?” has been VILIFIED. It is seen as the uncouthest of questions, baring naked your ladder-climbing, ass-kissing soul. And so this results in people standing around making small talk and very pointedly dancing around the topic of work, almost daring one another to ask the question which much never be, and it is absolutely ridiculous.
Yes, we KNOW you are not your work, but you live in goddamn Washington D fuckin C, you live there for a reason, and that reason includes work and it is a FINE QUESTION TO ASK as part of small talk. I’M TAKING THAT QUESTION BACK!
FASCINATING. I would be tempted to use this whole social situation for evil, seeing if I could goad people into asking about what I do for a living.
If people aren’t crazy about their jobs (mine is one that sounds cool but just…isn’t), it’s a good opening to ask about other things they enjoy doing in their spare time. CONVERSATIONAL TACTICS, WE HAVE THEM. Take back the question, report back about people’s reactions.
It’s really interesting in the kink scene in the DC area. Because “what do you do” is such a common small-talk question, and such a DC question, but in kink communities there is a lot of concern about anonymity when you are at a munch or just getting to know people, so you get lots of very vague answers (e.g. “I work for the government.” or “I do IT”), and the general etiquette is that you don’t press. I used to work for the Park Service, and this dude once asked me which park and I just kind of looked at him. I’m sure he had no idea, but I wasn’t about to tell a strange man I’d just met what open-to-the-public establishment he could find me at (esp. since we had about 10 employees total at that site, many of whom were part-time).
Huh, interesting!! I did not have much exposure to the kink scene in DC, other than a few friends who dabbled. That makes a lot of sense!
I was talking to a relative a while back about someone and I couldn’t answer what was to most people a pretty basic question about said person, and it’s because I don’t ask a lot of those kinds of questions, because we don’t ask them in my social circles! But I’m sure that looks weird to other people. A friend listed me as someone who could be interviewed for his clearance and the interviewer asked what he did and I said “I actually have no idea” (which was good, because it meant he was discreet about his work, but I think still funny. I’ve been to this dude’s house, I was a guest at his wedding, no idea how he pays the bills).
It’s interesting to compare the etiquette and social norms of the kink scene (or I imagine any subculture) to the larger culture around it; it’s been interesting to me to see how my kink expectations color my readings of behavior in vanilla settings.
I’ve noticed that too! It’s incredibly stupid. Asking people what they do is a great small talk question, you can be as breezy or detailed as you want, and plus people love talking about themselves.
(ps hi fellow DC resident??)
Former! I escaped after 7 years! I live in San Diego now 🙂 It suits me a little better, but I’m certainly happy I cut my teeth in DC.
I always preface it with “Well, it’s DC, so let’s get it out of the way, shall we? What do you do?” But I love hearing about what people do! There are a lot of people in this town with very interesting jobs!
Lampshading is my favorite way of defusing potential awkwardness. See also: “no, I know, I see you every day, isn’t it ridiculous that I don’t actually know your name, ha ha.”
Ask about their interests outside of work. People will talk forever about their passion. You can even ask “What are you passionate about?”
Yes, please! As a chronically unemployed person, asking what I do for a living makes me feel intensely uncomfortable and frankly, a bit of a loser.
And conversely, thanks for the solid opening line that I’ll certainly use at my next social gathering!
I’ve used “between life goals” to great effect during unemployed periods.
See, people ask me about myself, and then I talk, and I will keep talking, because they will laugh at my jokes and keep listening, and I have to actively remember to ask about them, even though half the time I don’t actually care (which I realize probably makes me a bad person, but I meet a LOT of people, many of whom I will only talk to once, and I often just don’t have the energy).
And that’s why small talk is a skill! I think for most people being the person on the asking end of the conversation doesn’t come naturally–you have to make yourself appear to care about the other person’s life.
Yeah, definitely. I have days when I’m “on” and I can do it and I do actually often like to listen to other people’s stories. I’m much better at it when it is a work function and I don’t worry that the people I am talking to are going to flirt with me. Sometimes when people try to initiate small talk with me, though, I have that part of my brain that is trying to figure out what their endgame is in talking to me, and I am just trying to get out of the conversation ASAP. (Or I just think they were rude to start talking. If we are on an elevator and you don’t know me, just ride in silence, bro. If you DO know me, say hi, but we don’t need to fill the 60-second elevator ride with chat about the weather)
I think that hating/having anxiety about small talk is different than the I’m-too-smart/cool/whatever-for-small-talk attitude. Probably a bunch of the too-cool/so bored types are probably masking anxiety about social situations but aren’t adult enough to admit it.
Paul Ford is just a treat. You may find more of his stuff by volume in The Morning News archives.
Also the Conclusion section of the politeness article is so, so lovely.
Thanks!
“Sometimes I’ll get a call or email from someone five years after the last contact and I’ll think, oh right, I hated that person. But they would never have known, of course. Let’s see if I still hate them. Very often I find that I don’t. Or that I hated them for a dumb reason. Or that they were having a bad day. Or much more likely, that I had been having a bad day.”
I loved this part, and the paragraph right before where he discusses his bad first impression of his wife. Such a generous way to approach the world.
It all boils down to “Be kind. Be interested.” It reminds of this book I read by a Buddhist nun where she asks you to sincerely wish well for other people. It’s hard! But being polite is a good way to start.
That feminist workspace article is making me so jealous I may have to stop reading it.
“If an employee needs to leave early to take care of a child or a parent or their own self, they should do that,” she says. “It is about treating them like grown-ups and trusting that they will complete their work.”
THIS, WHY CAN’T WE JUST DO THIS, WHY
edit: also, here is your constant reminder not to read the comments, there or most anywhere.
My first job was very clearly Not a Feminist Workplace, so when I changed jobs I was really taken aback when I went to ask permission to move my hours for a doctor’s appointment and my boss said, “you are an adult, just get your work done. Leave a note on your door so people know where you are just in case.” Now I get to schedule my own vacation, never have to ask permission, can go to appointments whenever. It still seems strange!
At my old firm, I had requests to leave early to go to the doctors rejected! Along with many many vacation requests, which required multiple people to approve.
Bosses who respect you are just, the greatest thing.
Yes yes yes! I also finally have a boss like this, as opposed to my previous job where if I needed to leave five minutes early to go to a doctor’s appointment, I was expected to make that time up later, as if I wasn’t already doing that with my frequent 10 hour work days.
Oh please, please everyone – do not read the comments. Do not. Not ever, but especially not on the feminist workspace article.
Ugh, Polly hits a little too close to home this week.
oh jeez, that Dear Polly hit close to home. It’s so easy to live with a chronic distrust of your feelings about your partners if you have baggage like the letter writer does. DTMFA indeed. Just reading through some emails/chats with my ex yesterday, I came across a bizarre exchange where he said that if he could handle my emotional sensitivity without abusing me, I should be able to handle his excessive drinking without abusing him (which I hadn’t done, I had just make a joke about punching him if he got too hung over to do our plans). So – yeah, obviously the whole exchange is unhealthy. But what the fuck? I think that one of the most validating mental exercises in situations like the letter writer’s (and mine) is to mentally place yourself in the shoes of the person you’re dealing with, and trying to understand what the ever living fuck they are thinking. If there’s a level of meanness or manipulation you can’t understand at all, then it’s not you. And I’m reading this and realizing that people probably should be able to discern things more easily and with more generosity towards themselves, but when you’re in constant “second-guessing yourself” mode, I think it helps to have something concrete. big ups to the letter writer for having the wherewithal to see things are effed up.
(and big ups to the Awl for the choice of the picture for that article… that’s exactly what I felt like after reading her letter. Polly’s response was – as always – solid gold)
Toasties, can you offer some work advice?
What do you do when someone at work (small office, will have to work with this person) interrupts you when you’re in the middle of explaining something to mansplain it back to you? He’s more articulate than I am, so while I was saying the same thing (and doing it first, and speaking from a place of better authority as it pertains to something I am working on right now), he arguably said it “better” than I could. This is a recurring thing. When it happened on Tuesday in a casual conversation with a third person, I just kept talking over him, and he didn’t get the point. If I say something, I think he will take it as a sign of weakness and use it against me (I don’t trust this dude). I don’t think I can say something to our boss (man) without coming off as a whiner. And, I’m not great on my feet (despite that being kind of important for my job), I tend to freeze rather than come back with a witty rejoinder when something makes me see red like this.
UGH that is so rude! SO rude. I’m a sassy beast at work so I’d probably just say something like “Yes, that’s what I was just saying” back to him, but that is not an option I would endorse for everyone, nor would it really achieve what you’re going for. I think that the best bet for now might be continuing to talk over him, as annoying as that is to have to do, until he gets the point. If he continues to refuse to get the point, say something to him directly. I’m thinking something like “don’t interrupt me again, you rude and insignificant piece of shit. If you actually listen to me when I’m talking to you maybe you won’t have to repeat it back at me so you can understand it.”
Either that or you can Wodehouse the guy. Works every time around here.
+1
Wodehouse him so hard he BURSTS INTO FLAMES.
Ditto EPWordsnatcher’s UGH, above. I’m sorry I can’t give you advice because what I would do probably qualifies as assault. The fact that he didn’t shut up after you kept talking over him is absolutely appalling. Perhaps next time he does this, hold up a finger and say, as you would to a child “Interrupting is rude. Your parents should have taught you better,” and then continue talking even when he doesn’t shut up.
If it makes you feel better, this sort of behavior does not make him look good at all.
“Excuse me, I haven’t finished”
“Excuse me, I haven’t finished”
“Excuse me, I haven’t finished”
Repeat ad nauseum. While holding up the 1 finger that CleverManka mentioned.
I think the trick here is to not let him get going – if he’s more articulate than you, he’s going to get the info out faster, so don’t let him start at all. Have a script ready to stop him.
Also, if this is something you want to work on, maybe look into ways you can become more comfortable with thinking on your feet – practice speaking in a mirror on topics you have to talk about a lot, go to improv classes – things to build your confidence. I’ve had similar trouble in the past with freezing and going blank when called upon, and building confidence has helped me with that.
OH, yes, this is perfect, and falls at least partially under the umbrella of Relentlessly Cheerful and Icily Polite that was pioneered back in the days of the ‘Pin (I can’t remember who to credit for that one, to my shame). It works for most odious situations with people you have to deal with regularly, this one included.
I believe that was the pistol packin’ mama! I miss her, I wonder if she has a new name here somewhere? But I have used that phrase a bunch of times, it’s such a good strategy.
I think I’ve seen her around under a different name, but won’t out her without her permission. I couldn’t remember whether it was her or anachronistique but I think you’re right! It is an amazingly useful strategy.
Seconding PoodlesInHats!
“Excuse me, I haven’t finished” is polite but firm, so he can’t accuse you of “getting upset over nothing” (which is a common tactic for mansplainers who are called out).
Or, if you prefer, when he’s done talking: “Huh, I just said that.” [awkward pause]
Thank you – I really like “excuse me, I haven’t finished,” and it’s short enough that if I repeat it to myself enough I think I’ll be able to whip it out at the appropriate moment.
Thirding for this solution!
I’m really not trying to make excuses for this douche canoe, but I myself am prone to doing something similar. If I’m not 100% certain of what someone just said, or I think I’m most of the way there, I will repeat it back to make sure we’re on the same page. (After they’re finished, and phrased as “I think I understand, what you’re saying is…”, etc, etc.) If you had any reason to believe this ass haberdasher was acting in good faith, both with the interruptions and with you asking him to stop, there’s a small possibility that this is what he thinks he’s doing and he might be amenable to a discussion on why his execution of this dialogue technique needs correction.
But you’ve already stated that you believe him to be a not-good-faith actor, so this is really just side rambling.
I have found that “just keep talking” works — make sure you get out another sentence or two before you say “excuse me, I wasn’t finished.”* People (men) who pull this expect you to shut up once they open their mouths. Haha, silly men.
*I have also used, “NO. I’m not done yet.” successfully, but might be too abrupt for your workplace. I work with socially awkward people, so, it was fine. YMMV.
I absolutely agree with the Just Keep Talking approach, combined with looking directly into the eyes of the person who has interrupted you. Once you’re done, a painfully polite “John, did you have a question for me about my project?” or “John, is there something you’re unclear about?” should do the trick.
(This is difficult for me sometimes, because a person who interrupts me can really throw me off of what I was trying to say, and I’ll end up pausing long enough to let them get a foot in the door. But when I pull it off I am exultant.)
Askamanager just had a question like this: http://www.askamanager.org/2014/08/shocking-criti….
I think you really need to be direct with him. Don’t try to condition him into good behavior (talking over him, ignoring it, etc,). It will just frustrate you when he refuses to acknowledge social cues and/or he will pick up on it and think you’re being passive aggressive.
In one-on-ones with this guy, try to interrupt back. Just a “Hold on just a second. Let me finish explaining the project that I’m working on and then we can talk about your questions or suggestions.” I tend to interrupt and this will shut me up.
When it comes to interrupting you in conversation, you don’t need to say something to him the very second he interrupts you if you’re not in the right headspace to do that. Just talk to him the same day. “You interrupted me when I was explaining something to Shirley earlier. I appreciate that you want her to understand, but you were rude. Is there something about (thing you were explaining) that you know that I don’t?” This is the point where he might launch into one of his mansplanations. Once he says his piece just say “I did know that. I’m an expert in that so let me know if you need more information about it.” If you feel like softening it you can throw in something like “If you ever overhear me saying something about our job that is out of date or incorrect, please bring it to my attention one-on-one after my conversation.”
If the behavior gets worse or doesn’t improve at all, then go to your boss and let him know. Be sure to bring up that you’ve already talked about it with the mansplainer.
Never be afraid to be confident and firm. Mansplaining thrives when women are too worried about being perceived as aggressive.
Depends on how well you can fake a guileless smile but I’ve used variations of, “Sorry, let me stand closer. It seems like you can’t hear me because you keep repeating what I’m saying.” to great effect (especially when other people are around).
Super frustrating! Good luck!
I instinctively see interrupting by dudes as a sexist act, but I also heed Caitlin Moran’s advice that calling it sexism may not be the best way to stare it down – couch it in terms of manners.
Sending you good “single index finger held up with ice cold self-confidence” vibes.
That feminist workplace article is killing me, because I work in a female-dominated industry, in a workplace with literally two men, and I get exactly jack in terms of the kinds of benefits and understanding they are describing. Never mind situations like my coworker who got screwed out of two days’ pay because her kid was sick enough to need someone to stay home with him but because he didn’t go to the doctor and get a note, she wasn’t allowed to use her sick days for those days off.
I used to be one of those obnoxious people who would say that I didn’t experience a lot of sexism just because I rarely get catcalled and can count on both hands the number of times I remember a dude saying something condescending to me in a way that was obviously sexist. I’ve grown out of it, thankfully, largely through issues like this which draw attention to the ways that the system is fucked. Even if there are no actual dudes making the direct decisions, the system can still be fucked.
Yeah, I felt the same way about the article- everyone in a leadership position at my company is a woman, and there is absolutely none of that “sisterhood” here. Last year a woman at my office took her full, legally allowed maternity leave (we’re in California) and was given a really hard time about it from my boss. She was the only person in the entire office who did not get year-end raise. When another woman who had returned after having a baby needed a private space to pump breastmilk, she was given a folding chair in our tiny, cramped server room, even though there was a large office that was not occupied at the time.
The system is fucked, indeed.
IT’s LEGAL NOT TO GIVE SOMEONE ON MATERNITY LEAVE A RAISE. omg omg. I’m pregnant in the UK at the moment and seriously the more I read about the US the more I don’t understand how anyone manages to have children.
I just saw on CNN (they have tvs in the cafeteria where I work) that Anonymous released the name of the police officer who murdered Mike Brown. Quick Google search produced this: http://www.wptz.com/money/anonymous-reveals-fergu…
This is a little reminiscent of the 60’s THE WHOLE WORLD IS WATCHING chant (only it’s Hand Up, Don’t Shoot this time). The more things change….
What Free Speech is and is not for the men who did not pay attention in Civics class:
Free Speech, or your 1st amendment right to free speech, means ONLY that you have the right to criticize your elected GOVERNMENT. That right does not apply to your desire to argue with or harass people , especially women online, make threats of violence or use a commercial space to express your opinions. Dude in comment above, you have no right to get your comment published. This website is owned by people, not the government. They can choose or not choose to publish whatever they want. That’s called Free Enterprise, which most Dudes profess to be in favor of.
YES yes yes yes.
Here is the relevant xkcd that I’ve had to post more times than I’d like to admit this year:
Don’t forget the alt text:
“I can’t remember where I heard this, but someone once said that defending a position by citing free speech is sort of the ultimate concession; you’re saying that the most compelling thing you can say for your position is that it’s not literally illegal to express.”
Ah but then the goalposts are moved to “but freedom of speech isn’t just a law, it is a series of ideals that we all should live by as per Voltaire blah blah blah,” which really just boils down to the right of the first speaker to be a turd while everyone else just shuts up and takes it.
Wait, as in that quote about “…I will defend to the death your right to say it”? Do these goalpost-movers know that it’s completely apocryphal, as acknowledged even by the biographer whose mistake started it all? (Also, the dude was pretty firmly anti-democracy.)
I always like to point out in conversations like those that we now have the internet, which comes as close to a literal interpretation of Mill’s “marketplace of ideas” as we have ever had. So, seriously, dumb speaker, feel free to go put together a geocities page full of your brilliant ideas, and we shall see what value the market places on it.
Ugh I’ve ALWAYS hated the “defend to the death your right to say it” quote.
Yeah, I’m not dying (or anything else that might inconvenience me) for some awful internet troll’s “right” to say rude things to other folks. They’re on their own with that shit.
I mean, Free Speech is an important ethical concept, but it sort of assumes that everybody exercising that Free Speech is doing so in good faith.
God, I hate the term “girlfriends” to mean “friends who are girls” so fucking much. SO MUCH.
But sometimes the ambiguity is too much fun. Like when an elderly lady in a spangled t shirt talks about her wild weekend with her girlfriends. And for a moment, you imagine to yourself a bunch of polyamorous seniors on the town. However, girlfriend as a term for female friend seems to be used only by people who seem unaware that lesbian exist.
My father once showed me a picture of my grandmother with “her girlfriend,” and I had this moment of being really surprised about this whole aspect of my grandmother’s life I’d never known about before.
…but then the girlfriend was just a friend who was a girl, and they were in high school, and the whole thing got way less cool.
It’s fun to answer it as if the user meant kissing-type-girlfriends, though. Like “you got mani-pedis with your girlfriends? I thought you were dating Fred?” and “No I’m not going on holiday with a girlfriend because she has to dogsit for her aunt, I’m going with my friend Sharon.” In my experience either the user doesn’t get it and you can keep pushing the edges so the “misunderstanding” becomes increasingly hilarious or they never use that phrase around you again.
You know, that feminist workplace article kinda makes me want to sign up for Julep because YAY COMPANIES WITH AN INTENTIONALLY FEMINIST WORKPLACE.
Why, why, why did I read the comments on the feminist workplace article. Why. It only took one for them to not get why Bitch magazine is called Bitch and the good old “I’M A WOMAN WHO LIKES MEN AND FEMINISM IS DISCRIMINATORY AND SCARY” chestnut.
I made the same mistake for about 5 comments and was like ??? I think people just saw “feminist” in the headline and lost their minds without reading the article whatsoever.
I mean, I know this is a pretty common reaction as far as negativity towards feminism goes, but it still baffles me how we reached 2014 without everyone knowing that FEMINISM DOESN’T MEAN “WOMEN ARE BETTER THAN MEN”. I get super disappointed in women who feel that way too, that aligning yourself with feminism means you’re a man-hater and no one will ever date you, which is the patriarchy’s fault and all, but it makes me sad!
speaking of things on the internet, has anyone seen that article in Time about the New Rule That Is: No More Jokes Ever? http://time.com/3101429/misandry-misandrist-femin…
I feel like I don’t want to see this article at all
I’ll sum it up:
“hello feminists. here’s something to think about: maybe men would like you more if you just stop making jokes. science has proven that nothing can be funny and everything is serious. you cannot make fun of anything because it will make men feel v. sad. also, you cannot make fun of yourself, or make fun of outlandish and exaggerated stereotypes about your social movement, because it will also make men feel sad emotions. please stop making jokes. please cultivate pretty flowers and weave floral crowns into your hair when the summer comes.”
yup I’m super concerned about men’s emotions tbh, obviously these are the only emotions we must be concerned about
plus just how misandrist is it to be like “men are fragile idiots who won’t understand you’re kidding”
Silly, men don’t have emotions! They have OPINIONS. Which are FACTS. Because FREEDOM.
“Also, it’s equivalent to a man wearing a shirt that says ‘Misogyny,’ because both of those sentiments oppress and kill equal numbers of people around the world!”
I just read that and am now incandescent with rage. I hate hate HATE the ‘if you were nicer you’d have more allies’ argument– NO. If you cannot get on board with a movement that’s making things better for everyone because we are not sweet and nice enough for you, YOU are the problem. Period.
“Oo, I would agree with equality and justice for all and the idea that everyone should be treated as human beings, but someone made fun of me so I won’t!”
NOPE indeed. If you are nicer, people will ignore you. I 100% believe in kindness and treating people with respect and generally being a nice gal. But you want me to be nicer about something like this? HAHAHA no too bad.
Hahahahaha NOPE.
Last year, a 2013 HuffPost/YouGov poll found that only 23 percent of women and 16 percent of men consider themselves to be feminists. Of that 16 percent, surely even fewer would find jokes about misandry funny.
I joke about misandry with my partner all the time, he seems to find it pretty funny.
Knowing that people don’t find jokes about misandry funny just makes me want to make more of those jokes…
Winning at last! We’ve made it into TIME!
And they say woman don’t have a sense of humor.
“The humor is lost on most people, and it’s terrible PR for feminism”
The first one is true, the second one seems to be her real point. And it would be totally true… if there was a Central Feminist Authority that spent its time carefully managing the outreach efforts.
Yeah, someone should really get in touch with Marketing on this, we obviously need to start thinking more about what other people think about us.
I mean, maybe we could just try smiling more?
Someone with more photoshop/indesign skills than I have needs to start making some District 11 = Ferguson propaganda posters right now. Because seriously, this is some dystopian bullshit.
I think everyone could use a dose of tiny elephants this week:
THANK YOU how did you know that this would be perfect?
Because tiny elephants are never not perfect. 🙂
*waves at baby elephant*
Thank you for this.
I think they are in a tiny punk band.
this is everything that is good in the world
I love tiny elephants and their tiny, perpetually-startled, full-body mohawks.
That Polly letter. Can we all just agree that men that turn confiding in to emotional pissing conversations are the absolute WORST?
You will never ever be allowed any vulnerability around these people because as soon as you say “oh there was this horrible time when X happened to me”, they will always respond with “yeah but X times infinity plus 12 happened to ME”.
Juiceboxes.
I’ve made that one-pan pasta a few times and it’s great IF you cut down the amount of onion and garlic by about a third and then also only if you eat it all immediately. It’s creamy and light and delicious if you eat it immediately. If you save it for later and reheat the creaminess is gone and replaced with something I can only describe as solidified disappointment.
“solidified disappointment” – perfect description of foods that you can’t save for leftovers.
seconding that recipe. Just made it on monday! if your pot is too small you should just pour water on the noodles consistently so as to soften the noodles quicker
On comments for articles: Agreed that most places are terrible especially regarding fully unmoderated comments. On the other hand I find that places (like here) that can build a decent to great commenting community add a huge value (to me) as far as interest in reading content at that site goes. For example, I kind of just skimmed through the article about abolishing comments as I knew there wouldn’t be any comments that could respond to the author.
I’m not sure why, but I just find it fascinating to get a look into how a site’s community interacts, almost more so than the ‘official’ content sometimes. Even though I myself rarely comment places and mostly just lurk. Another example, I used to visit the Awl almost daily but pretty much stopped once commenting has mostly died off there (especially amongst the regulars). Also, Mallory’s always great comments at the Hairpin.
I guess I’m down with burning the comments sections the like of Yahoo news or Youtube to the ground, but disagree that all comments everywhere should be pushed off to separate platforms, and can add a lot to a community (if a good community can be built up).
Anyway, a lot written about kind of a silly thing 🙂
I think the dude who’s like “respond to pieces on Twitter or your own site; look, Jonathan Chait!” is very much missing the point of comments sections. When Chait uses his major media platform to criticize a writer at another major media outlet, he is engaging in public discourse. Despite the harumphing from Harding about “parasitically attach[ing] yourself to a high-traffic website in order to reach an audience you could never earn on your own,” commenters aren’t actually looking to reach a broad audience; mostly, they mean to talk to the piece’s author or other commenters. And for the most part, that’s all they succeed in doing; only a very small proportion of readers ever look at comments, even at a site like this one.
Moreover, not everyone has the luxury of using their real name, or platforms that can easily be traced back to them, to respond to things they read online. So again, nuts to this “get your own platform” Nicholas Jackson dude; his perspective seems to be warped by the platform he already has.
Now, none of that is to say any website operator is obliged to maintain an open comments section, or any comments section, if it’s not good for their site. Free speech actually is a value that exists outside the First Amendment, so lefty folks are making a category error (legal rules versus societal norms) when they respond to invocations of free speech with “That only applies to the government!” But for owners of private forums, free speech is one value to be balanced among many, not an overriding command.
This has happened to me so much than whenever I'm in a group and someone joins in, I will immediately be the one to tell them what we're discussing.