On sexual harassment in the restaurant industry:
“When you file a complaint, you look like a bad guy, because now they have to go through this process and there is a paper trail, and they wind up taking you off the schedule or they’ll ostracise you,” says Kirk.
A third of restaurant workers said that they did not report sexual harassment from their co-workers and their managements because they feared their shifts would get worse. Worse shifts mean worse tips, which means a lower pay check at the end of the week.
While we’re on restaurants, this look at the Chinese immigrants who staff them is really good:
Rain’s friend told him to find a job farther away, “so the boss will treat you better.” Rain found work in South Carolina, where he stayed for two months. “At the beginning, I couldn’t do anything—I could only clean up, do a little frying,” he told me. “Now I can do pretty much anything.” He encountered his first eggroll and his first fortune cookie, and learned how to prepare dishes he had never seen in China. He practiced using cornstarch to make a crispy coating on General Tso’s chicken and to thicken the sauce for beef with broccoli. Like most cooks in busy Chinese restaurants, he figured out how to use a single knife, a heavy cleaver, for everything from cleaning shrimp to mincing garlic. “It’s important that you do it fast,” he said.
The afterlife of your stolen bike:
Sergeant Hall—stout, balding, mellow—says that for years he’d heard rumors about Bicycle Pull Apart. Once he began digging he found that more than half the store’s purchases or pawns last year were from convicted felons—“almost all for property crimes or drug crimes.” Pawnshops and similar used goods stores are required by city law to keep online records of their transactions, including serial numbers and customer ID info. Several of these customers’ names were entered incorrectly, and one entry listed the wrong serial number for a stolen Litespeed Tuscany worth $835. “Upon seeing the imprinted serial number,” Hall wrote in his arrest report, “I can only conclude it was intentionally mistyped as the number was clear.”
Amazing interview with Charles Blow:
And endurance becomes this ambient thing in your life; it becomes your constant. It is not just to play and grow up and fall in love, but it is to endure. It becomes the paramount motivation in your life. The tragedy when you hear young men say, Oh I never thought I’d be 18 or 21 without going to jail or being in the grave. I’ve heard this too much. If that is being drilled into your mind, what kind of psychological damage does that do to you, and to your relationship to society? And in addition to that, whatever damage is being done, society is amplifying the damage by misconstruing the data and concepts so that we overestimate black crime, we overestimate black hostility, we overestimate black aggression. We ascribe it everything dark and negative. In that kind of hostile milieu of black bodies that have been tortured in a way, in a system that is designed to destroy it, these concepts of black being dangerous and wrong, you can have the unfortunate crossing of those wires and you get shootings. I don’t know how to fix that. I don’t know if I’m equipped to answer that.
Want @AP to use “sex worker,” not “prostitute?” MT @APStylebook “Let us hear from you: entries for 2015 Stylebook. http://t.co/uO8RsnSxSz”
— Open Society Health (@OSFHealth) October 7, 2014
This Reason article (and Reason has actually been great on police brutality coverage this summer, so they LULLED US) on consent is the stupidest thing I’ve ever read [about consent] and I’ll link it for you but I’ll also give you a screenshot excerpt in case you want to stick with that (also, the URL is ruining-sex-in-california, for lolz):
Allow me to recommend Nichole Perkins’ awesome piece on being a black female domme looking for white male subs as a palate cleanser:
Nashville has a strong underground D/s and swinging culture, but the more I researched, the more I knew I’d never join any clubs or ask to be invited as a guest to explore my options. Through FetLife, I learned that the local men who were masters or dominants were almost all white and the language in their profiles frequently set off my internal racist alarms. I saw one man with a picture of a Confederate flag belt buckle he used for flogging. The most popular local club, or “professional dungeon,” lists in its code of conduct that “respect should always be accorded to every individual…” but when I’d see the expected attendees for gatherings, I’d cringe at how few people of color seemed to be present. There were some black men who were doms, but based on their profiles, they were masters of primarily white women. If I’d reached out to them, I think I would’ve been ignored or rejected. I didn’t feel like I’d be safe or respected if I tried to attend one of the gatherings — not as someone new to the life and definitely not as a black woman.
All of these arguments are made by men who have extreme difficulty getting women to have sex with them.
FOREPLAY IS NOT COERCION
Anyone who thinks it is is having some really bad sex
God, seriously. Someone should explain to this juicebox that foreplay is not about stealthily “convincing” a woman to have sex with you against her will.
Seriously, someone’s gotta initiate. As long as that someone can tell AND RESPECT the difference between “Hot damn, yeah, why am I still wearing pants?” and “Um…okay, I guess, if you really want to?” then you’re set.
in my experience, you get a woman to have sex w you via (1) getting her to like you generally; (2) foreplay.
This was spelled out for you QUITE CLEARLY in American Pie the original, why is everyone so confused now?
It’s totally normal that women don’t want to have sex with me until I’ve badgered and cajoled and manipulated them for so long that it’s just not worth the effort to keep saying no…right? Ha ha — dating, you know!?! Amirite?
AM I?
(Spoiler alert: You are not right.)
What the fuck kind of sex is Shikha Dalmia having?!
Except Shikha Dalmia is a woman?
Men only initiate.
Maybe in your life brah. Sorry for your luck. Now quit being fucking rapey.
Also, I bet being contrarian has been really fun for you so far, but might I suggest that arguing FOR rape is a bridge too far.
ETA: Whoops it was written by a woman. Even sadder I guess.
God, everything is the worst today.
Blanket fort and wine time, and it’s only 9:30 am where I’m at.
On the plus side, my fancy hat picture is now showing up, inspired by yesterday’s Ladies in Hats post! Hooray!
8:45a here.
Always appropriate.
I hate everything so much that I can’t actually make facial expressions. Even frowning is too much work.
Another cop shot another black teenager in St. Louis last night – http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimdalrympleii/st-louis-p…
Look, whether or not the kid fired shots at the police officer, I feel safe in saying–
FUCK THE PEDESTRIAN CHECK. STOP THIS SHIT. WALKING AROUND IS LEGAL IN ALL 50 STATES. STOP FUCKING DETAINING PEOPLE FOR WALKING.
Note: Do NOT read any mainstream reporting on this unless you want to rage blackout. Police are saying the teenager was armed. News outlets are taking that as the gospel truth and reporting that he was armed. Hmmmm MAYBE JUST MAYBE there’s a rational basis for being skeptical of those claims.
Yeppp. I’m talking to my friend about it, because she’s generally really smart and righteous and angry about things that a person should be angry about, and she’s all “oh but I think it’s a generalization to say that there is racism in the police force as a whole” and I just
Poor Ruth Thalia.
The audio version of “The Contestant,” ends with Ruth’s mom singing, and it is just wow. I would recommend the Radio Ambulante version as well if you speak some Spanish.
Someone put the woman who wrote that Reason article in detention. I think she needs to copy out Mallory’s essay from Monday on the blackboard 50 times.
I’d like to link toasties to this kickstarter, which is dedicated to creating a magazine for MOGAI characters where their sexuality or gender identity isn’t the focus of the story. It seems like our kind of thing!
They’re already a quarter of their way to their goal and they have 22 days to go. Once I get some money, I’ll be pledging too!
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/candystar/vi…
Thanks for the link! I’m halfway through their free minizine, and I’m really liking the stories so far. Great tales with characters that just happen to be lgbt+ (how they describe it) I think I’ll be pledging as well.
On a side note, what does MOGAI stand for? I haven’t come across that before
Marginalised Orientations, Genders and Intersex. It’s just a little bit less of a mouthful, while being more inclusive.
Thanks, it’s always good to learn more lingo
If you like that, you might enjoy “Steam-powered: lesbian steampunk stories“, which is a buncha wacky sci-fi short stories with heroes who happen to be lesbian.
EW EW EW EW I DO NOT NEED CONVINCING
“convincing”
Thank you for linking to the story about Ruth Thalia. I read it last week and I’ve been thinking about her and her family ever since.
I have been sexually assaulted and I have experimented, explored, discovered, and generally been a sexually-active teenager, and let me tell you. There is a world of difference. Most people can tell the difference. Rapists can tell the difference, they just don’t care/prefer it if consent is not present. There is research backing this up. I’m sick unto death of people claiming that sex is just so darned confusing that rape can’t help but happen. Rapists. Know. What. They. Are. Doing.
STANDING. OVATION.
If I’m not in the mood to have sex, that doesn’t mean I want “convincing” out of my “comfort zone” it means I don’t fucking want to have sex right then. Ughh. Ughhhhhh.
Does anyone else need this kitten-cam? I needed this kitten-cam after this roundup and also another link that someone else posted elsewhere.
http://www.apl.tv/kittens.htm
I had no idea that I needed that kitten cam, but I DID SO THANK YOU, also there is a puppy one aahhhhh
In case you need a backup : http://explore.org/live-cams/player/kitten-rescue…
Also, some people might be ok with their partner trying to convince them. Usually, however, that’s been explicitly negotiated! For example, I’m on a drug that basically makes me forget that sex is a thing. I enjoy it once its happening but it basically VERY rarely occurs to me to initiate this. My partner and I have talked about this and we’re BOTH ok with him getting things going sometimes even if I’m not super into it at first, because usually I GET into it.
The key is, though, that we talked about this a lot, both know it’s open for re-negotiation at any point, and whenever I say hmm actually this just isn’t working, we just stop and there is NO sulking.
So yes, sometimes one partner wants to have sex more than the other, and the couple still has sex. But there’s a world of difference between coercing the less enthusiastic partner and coming to a mutually agreeable place where everybody is still consenting! Why is this so hard to understand??
Yes! I’m glad you spoke up. When I say that I don’t need to be convinced, I don’t want talk over couples where some negotiation is a necessary and healthy part of the relationship! But that negotiation you describe is how I imagine negotiation should look, not the article’s “the concept of enthusiastic consent is going to ruin my sex life,” because that latter is just. . . shocking? gross? I can’t.
Yeah that article basically seems to be getting at “women’s agency is a turn off” which…..burn it with fire.
It is so weird! Yes, sometimes one person is raring to go and the other needs to be turned on. The question is, do they want to be turned on? If yes, hooray, you are doing foreplay. If no, STOP. GOD. Not that hard.
You just said what I’ve spent the past 45 minutes trying to articulate in my brain. Thanks!
Yeah man! My male partner is also not a big initiator. We talk in advance – “We’ll have sex this day, this time”, and that’s how we deal with that problem. Sometimes he’s like “nah, I’d rather not” at that day and that time, and while it hurts my heart and my vagina sometimes, I’m like “cool, ok, let’s watch Lost” or whatever. Because we are not going to have sex he doesn’t want to have.
So glad you linked to the Nichole Perkins article – I read it earlier this week and was glad not only to hear a black woman’s perspective on d/s, but the perspective of someone who’s not 100% into the culture 100% of the time total expert domme!!! but used what she was comfortable with and figured out what turned her on as she went. (I’m not into d/s but I think we need to hear more of these figure-it-out-as-you-go stories about sexuality.)
It’s the only link I let myself read this morning (I need to be productive, not to crawl immediately back into a dark hole). It was amaaaaazing.
It also really, really made me want to invite her to come to my city for a while, since the description of the friends/mentors she’s looking for seems to fit our local munch really well.
(ETA: I don’t know anyone who’s an ‘expert’ at D/S who didn’t have some sort of figuring-it-out story. The dommliest domme had to learn somehow. Which is not a critique, just that it’s really amazing to hear everyone’s stories!)
YES! I can enthusiastically consent to p-in-v without it starting that instant.
The New Yorker piece about Rain and the Chinese restaurants was really really great and it left me feeling really hopeful on what has so far been a fucking shitstain of a day.
I had no idea! I’ve eaten in loads of small-town Chinese restaurants and wondered how you come all the way from another continent and end up in some weird strip mall in Iowa. Turns out there’s a remarkably complex answer.
It reminded me of Adam Smith’s pencil example. I guess…hooray for the market? Kind of?
The article on Chinese restaurant workers destroyed me.
The Ruth Thalia article ground whatever was left in to dust.
And now Im starting the consent article. Oh god.
That was awful, that was so so awful and Ive just realized that it was a woman that wrote it which has depressed me even more.
At first I was angry but actually I think it is just sad that attitudes to sex are so off kilter that some women dont even feel like they should need to give enthusiastic consent, that they feel like they need to be cajoled in to sex with the hope that they *might* enjoy it later.
Men have never had to think this way about sex, and generally speaking (yes I realize there are exceptions) they worry comparatively less about whether they are “might” enjoy the sex. They know they will.
Women’s arousal is complicated and clearly not prioritized or even understood enough and the yes movement is so important because it prioritizes it and says sex should happen when the woman wants it to happen and yes both parties will enjoy it all way more this way.
I skipped the consent article and went to the Perkins essay instead. Why eat crap when you can have sorbet!
There’s a big difference between experimentation when both partners are okay with the idea that they will be experimenting, and “she didn’t say no, so obviously that means yes!”
I am currently refusing to harsh my birthday joys by reading sad things. Is that awful? I feel like it might be awful.
Not awful. You deserve all the joy today. Happy Birthday!
Nope. Happy birthday!
Happy birthday!
Dude, you have literally every other day to read sad news. Enjoy your birthday your way. 🙂
Don’t worry; the sad news will continue to happen, and to be sad, even if you choose to ignore it and have fun instead.
Happy birthday!
He wasn’t even on duty!!!!! An OFF-DUTY cop shot a black teenager.
Yeah, this one was just for fun on my own time, no worries.
“And someone who requires convincing is not yet in a position to offer “affirmative” much less “enthusiastic” consent.”
This sentence is giving me deep doubts about the ability of words to mean things. I would use this same sentence to explain why “gray areas” in consent are in fact coercion.
I am going to go weep in the corner, for both words and people.
Ugh, ugh, ugh. My first job was in a restaurant. I was 15. It was a very, very fancy restaurant and usually full of rich older people. One day, I was bringing stuff back to the kitchen and and one such older guy grabbed my ass. I was more annoyed than upset and I just let it go and haven’t really thought about it until I saw this article about sexual harassment in restaurants, but thinking back — there’s not a chance I could have reported that, even if I was really upset about it. Nothing would have happened, with the possible exception of me being made fun of by my coworkers. Ugh.
And that article about sexual consent just makes me want to bang my head against the desk. I also read a few articles on nymag yesterday that were on the sidebar of this week’s Ask Polly, and the articles themselves (about sexual assault in the alt-lit community, and roofies, and one super innocuous article about the silly things “women definitely want” according to men’s magazines) weren’t the problem — but I ventured into the comment section, and oh man. I think I’ve just given up. I guess The Toast has made me forget that internet commenters are the worst. And it’s not like just a couple of bad comments — they’re ALL awful. UGH.
Ask Polly’s move makes me so sad. Half the joy was reading the comments from people who were smart and engaged with her approach, and now it’s just the hoi poloi complaining that her answers are too long, offering painfully facile Dear Prudence-style advice, or just being gross and rude.
Ask Polly should be on the Toast, where all good things belong.
Oh god the nymag comments are so dumb. I read one that said something to the effect of “i look at the question and only half read the response” which is just mind mindbogglingly idiotic as every word Polly writes is pure gold. Why would a person just half read pure gold?!
However the advice is still beautiful and I hope she is getting a good paycheck so I guess it is all good? Id still only want to discuss her columns with the Toasties.
I’d cast my pearls before the internet swine, if there was a nice paycheck involved. Paychecks are where it’s at.
The really sad thing is that the Ask Polly comments are (from my limited poking around) significantly better than most of the other nymag article comments. They’re only HALF awful.
Come here, Polly. We will never complain that your answers are too long. (????!!!!)
I’m sorry that I’m about to hijack your comment, but I’m having a severe case of Someone is Wrong on the Internet and maybe if I vent about it, it’ll go away.
I was reading Roxane Gay’s recap of the Wedding episode of Outlander on nymag’s Vulture (I am two weeks behind in viewing) and there is a dude in there lecturing that those of us who enjoyed the episode probably think it’s okay when women cheat on their husbands with better-looking men, and in fact are the kind of women who probably do that. And then when someone called him on it, he was all YOU DON’T KNOW ME I’M A FEMINIST HOW DARE YOU, and why are we mad, he’s just expressing an alternate reaction to the show?
Like, I am not going to jump in on a two-week old argument, but that is quite the leap in logic there dude, and also you didn’t just express an opinion about the episode, you insulted everyone who enjoyed it?
Anyway, I think the worst part about this book being made into a show is that now I am being exposed to what men think about it, which, no thank you.
oh my god, the sex consent thing, what does that remind me of, let’s see, oh yeah:
Je crois que jai déjà écrit dans mes notes que lamour ressemblait fort à une torture ou à une opération chirurgicale. Mais cette idée peut être développée de la manière la plus amère. Quand même les deux amants seraient très épris et très pleins de désirs réciproques, lun des deux sera toujours plus calme ou moins possédé que lautre. Celui-là, ou celle-là, cest lopérateur, ou le bourreau; lautre, cest le sujet, la victime.
(‘I think I already wrote in my notes that the act of love strongly resembles a torture or a surgical operation. But this idea can be developed in the most bitter manner. Even should the two lovers be both infatuated and very full of reciprocal desire, one of the two will always be calmer or less possessed than the other. This one, or that one, is the operator or the executioner; the other, the patient, the victim.”)
hey you know what Baudelaire’s not famous for? BEING GOOD AT FUCKING.
Man, I love your [commenting] style. LOVE.
(I’ll assume you’re stylish in other areas as well, unless I hear otherwise)
oh gosh
thank you for your kind assumption
If you think no one will have sex any more because of consent laws and you think it will Ruin Sex Forever, all I can say is You Are Doing It Wrong.
I quit a restaurant job when I was 16 because the 30-something (male) chef kept hitting on me and making really inappropriate comments. Then, he started asking the kitchen manager to put me specifically on food prep so I would be alone in the back of the kitchen with him. I was too afraid/ashamed to say anything, so I had to quit my job. NOT OKAY, RESTAURANT INDUSTRY.
And every time I see someone upset about the potential for a law to “ruin good men” I think of that scene in Better Off Dead where the guy says, “Now that’s a real shame when folks be throwing away a perfectly good white boy like that.” I don’t know why, I just do.
1. Not surprised a magazine called Reason doesn’t know what it’s talking about re: consent.
2. “Nashville has a strong underground D/s and swinging culture…” WHY ISN’T THIS PART OF THE SHOW!?
NASHVILLE! After season one it went to shit but if it incorporated your brilliant suggestion, my God…the possibilities!
I am happy with the fact that we talk about how foreplay is a thing and you shouldn’t expect a woman to be ready for vigorous PIV at the drop of a hat and that we talk about how desire is a complicated thing. But I wish we would get past the idea that women have to be “convinced” to have sex, or “warmed up” or “seduced” or anything else that continues to position women as the gatekeepers to sex and men as the seekers, and also past the idea that women aren’t really all that into sex. People who are opposed to affirmative consent seem to think that most women don’t actually want to have sex and will say “no” if they are asked prior to being on the receiving end of whatever no-fail seduction technique is being employed. For some of us, “wanna fuck?” IS a no-fail seduction technique (I think in the 3+ years I have been with my partner, I have turned him down once, because I was exhausted and bleeding and I didn’t want to deal with the mess). But “yes, sure, I wanna” doesn’t absolve you from foreplay, because being emotionally/mentally in the mood isn’t the same as being physically aroused (also, btw, arousal is not the same as consent, just because the body is responding to your advances doesn’t mean the person is).
Sex is more fun when everyone involved knows that all the other involved parties want to be there and are enjoying themselves. If you find that women are not giving you affirmative consent, perhaps the problem is not affirmative consent, but you.
Can we just make a poster of your comment and plaster it everywhere, forever?
A+ comment, but I also wish we would get past the idea that PIV is the only thing that counts as sex.
Good point!
Maybe we don’t have enough awfulness in the Roundup today? Just in case, here’s some more! Let’s treat employees like default thieves while stealing their time/wages! IRONY.
http://www.salon.com/2014/10/08/amazons_gross_new…
No, it’s your birthday. Sad things will still be there tomorrow. Also Happy Birthday!
Oops that was for Houblonchouffe!
Why is Reason writing about sex at all?
Popular subject, I hear.
The boundless arrogance of economists, their unending willingness to hold forth on any manner of subject.
I’m really confused in particular by Dalmia’s exasperation over verbal, enthusiastic consent needing to be obtained at every stage of a sexual interaction. I don’t know, am I freakishly lucky that my partner and I already do that? Things don’t happen unless I’ve said the words “I want ____”. I thought that was standard…
There’s a scene in some TV show (I think it was Six Feet Under) where a couple is making out, and the man keeps saying things like “may I put my hands on your breasts?”. Every time he wants to do something, he asks for consent, and eventually the woman is like “um, this is not fun anymore, we are done.” I think that a lot of people think that that is the only way affirmative consent can work, and that it is inherently unsexy and unfun. (And also that all women just want a man to take charge and do whatever they want)
But it can be sexy and fun. And it can also be practical and that’s okay.
But no, verbal consent at every stage is not standard, there is a lot of sexual activity that is basically “partner A tries something, partner B stops them if they don’t want it to happen.”
That sounds like every other terrible comedy sketch of the mid-90s. the point of those seemed to be that dirty talk is super unsexy, which is a legitimate point of view but very weird to assume as universal. Or I guess maybe the point is that dirty talk is only sexy if it includes insults and orders, maybe that’s it.
Here’s what gets me about all the whining about consent:
Men keep saying that a woman might accuse them of rape even though they totes didn’t rape, she was into it, she’s just saying that after the fact.
Let’s operate on the assumption that maybe this unlikely scenario happened. Maybe you did get consent, maybe the woman you are with got pissed at you and is the kind of terrible person who would accuse you of rape even when you did not rape her.
Has anyone noticed how incredibly fucking privileged this is? How guys are like, “But I might have to only go to bed with people I trust not to be terrible people! There might be a time where I have sex with someone and there are horrible consequences because I misjudged the type of person they are. I might have to deal with other people judging me. I might have to talk to police and feel shame and get punished in ways that I didn’t even deserve.”
Oh, so you’re afraid of your sex life becoming like every woman’s out there? Except, you know, without the horrible physical violence and psychological ramifications that come with being raped?
Seriously, all this fucking whining about “ruining sex.” Women have dealt with this ALWAYS. We have ALWAYS had to pick our partners carefully because if we choose wrong, he might do something terrible to us and then we will have to deal with social shunning and police contempt and potential job loss and ALL THIS SHIT THEY’RE AFRAID OF.
It’s not new that the worst possible world a man can imagine is one in which they have toned-down versions of the experiences women have now, but it’s written all over the objections to active consent.
UGH YES
GOD I wish I had thought of THIS EXACT COMMENT when I went to see Gone Girl with a male friend of mine, and he walked out and was like, “This is why I’m suspicious of all women bc they might be crazy bitches and accuse me of rape and THEN whut”
And I was like “you’re an idiot.” But THIS. This elucidation is much, much better than my response.
ETA: I mean, god knows he wouldn’t have listened, but holy shit.
This is why your friend is probably having terrible terrible sex, too.
I had never noticed that, but now I am searing it into my memory.
God, thank you for writing this. I’m going to memorize it.
Only the first two sentences (of the Reason quote) rang true for me, as they made me think of long-term relationships where the initial infatuation has cooled and, due to long familiarity and the monotonous routine of daily life, something like weary indifference settles in its place. This isn’t to say the relationship is doomed, it just has to be negotiated differently. And I think it’s true in those situations, there’s rarely a night where both partners are equally in the mood to throw their clothes off with abandon.
BUT EVEN THEN, the approach for sex — everything involving seduction and foreplay — does not in the least require dubious consent. You make the opening, verbally and physically, but there will come a point when the partner WHOM YOU KNOW WELL will let you know, with no more room for argument, whether or not it’s a possibility that evening. And if it’s not, you stop. End of story. There’s isn’t infinite room for “coaxing.” Fuck you if you think there is.
Also, women do not require more coaxing, fuck you for that too.
(My brain feels slow and stupid this morning, so I don’t know if I said this right, but I feel it’s important.)
Sometimes my partner wants sex and I’m not that into it, or vice versa. Here’s what usually happens:
“Hey, you wanna have sex?”
“Eh. I’m kind of tired. Not really feeling it.”
“Aw, sad.”
“Were you really wanting to?”
“Kinda.”
“Okay. Well, I’ll give it a shot.”
Then we go to bed and start making out. Sometimes that fires up the engines enough that we have sex. Sometimes it doesn’t and the person who was not into it says, “You know what, I’m just not getting there.” More often than not, the person who WANTED to have sex originally is like, “Hey, are you not really feeling this?” and the non-enthusiastic person is like, “Sorry, but no.” AND THEN WE STOP.
The consent is there. I don’t have to be jumping up and down with enthusiasm to offer clear and non-debatable consent. Agreeing to give it a shot IS consent. Saying “I’m not really in the mood but what the hell, I’ll try,” IS consent.
And like you said, sometimes we don’t even get that far. Sometimes the person who wasn’t into it never agrees to give it a try. Sometimes that person is like, “No, really, I’m just not in the mood,” AND THAT IS THE END OF THE DISCUSSION.
I have had male friends whose wives do not want to have sex with them very often. They’ve gone up to two years at a stretch without sex. They are frustrated by this state of affairs. But you know what they don’t do? THEY DON’T CONTINUE TO TRY HAVE SEX WITH A PERSON WHO IS SAYING THEY DON’T WANT TO HAVE SEX. They ask, they get turned down, they are disappointed. They may eventually decide this is not a tenable sexual relationship and leave. But they don’t “coax” someone who doesn’t want it.
That sounds like a wonderfully reasonable and respectful way to handle it. In a good relationship, you know your partner and what they really want at the time and you respect that. You know when your “coaxing” is more about yourself, designed to wear them down regardless of their own feelings. It’s not a tremendously hard concept.
Yeah, I feel like the article (that I didn’t read) is really missing a HUGE piece of it that those of us in long-term relationships with maybe mis-matched libidos know. You can consent to sex that you don’t actually desperately WANT right in that moment. You can affirmatively consent for a bunch of reasons. That is totally possible. It doesn’t involve coercion at all. It involves negotiation, and safety to say no at any point. That safety is the opposite of coercion.
This is a much better and more succinct way of putting this. Yes, absolutely. Negotiation is different than coercion.
Yes! Clear, unambiguous consent doesn’t require both partners to want the sex equally or for both to be climbing the walls with horniness. “Sure, I’ve got nothing else to do and it will be kind of fun” counts as consent. The point of requiring affirmative consent isn’t to limit the “acceptable” reasons why people have sex, as long as there’s no coercion or fear of repercussions, women can give consent for whatever reason they want including “my partner really wants it and I don’t care one way or another”. I mean, that one’s not likely to lead to GOOD sex, but these are consent laws not quality-of-sex laws. There’s a hell of a difference between mediocre sex you’re not really into and non-consensual sex and it boggles my mind that people are pretending they can’t tell the difference.
Uuuuuuugghhhh that consent article.
It is not that complicated. And I say this as someone with a boyfriend who has a higher sex drive than mine, and I sometimes will jokingly use the phrase “convince me” but I am never going to say that unless I am 100% mentally on board with the idea and just need to get physically into it. Usually the reminder of “oh right you have a physical form that will enjoy this” works! (Hormonal birth control fucked me up.) Or after 10 minutes I’ll be like “meh this is not going to happen” and then we go back to Netflix!
Am I training him wrong? Should I stop this pattern for the good of team active consent?
(hopping onto this comment thread because I have a similar situation)
Boyfriend with significantly higher sex drive than mine, ALSO partly due to hormonal birth control and also past sexual assaults, we’ve been negotiating my PTSD for the past year we’ve been together and while we’ve gotten super good at that we haven’t gotten super good at… enjoying sex as much? Not that we don’t enjoy it when it happens, it’s just like since we’ve spent so long treating sex as ‘potentially/likely triggering’ we haven’t spent v. much time treating it as ‘the best thing ever (which I very much used to believe).’ I think this is definitely mostly completely a ‘me’ problem, but it’s also an ‘us’ problem because we’ve gotten stuck in this pattern of he pursues, I’m the gatekeeper, which makes me feel horribly shitty and way less interested in sex than I was before because what a turn off, seriously.
Tips/heartfelt advice from Toasties who are willing to share how they’ve gotten through something like this? Much appreciated, love to you all on this day of terrible sad news in the Link Roundup.
Can you maybe unpack a little more about why the pattern you’re in makes you feel bad? I mean, I’m all for a culture that lets women be interested in sex and initiate sexual encounters, but I think that many relationships fall into patterns about who initiates various activities, be that making dinner or having sex, and that isn’t necessarily a bad thing, as long as that partner doesn’t feel burdened by it.
I would say, if it bothers you that he is always the one initiating and you would like to initiate more, maybe try to make an effort to keep an eye on your internal libido/arousal gauge and start initiating sexytimes once it crosses a certain threshold. That threshold doesn’t have to be “crawling the walls horny”, it could be “if he propositioned me right now, I would say yes”. It being your idea might change other things about the interaction as well.
There was a period of time soon after we first started dating where we had to stop all kinds of sexual things, even kissing, because it was too overwhelming for me and I couldn’t handle it. He’s never pressured me and has always respected my boundaries, and I didn’t felt guilty for not wanting to have sex with him, but I did feel really frustrated with being in a situation where I couldn’t satisfy my partner’s needs or wants, even a little, and didn’t want to because there was too much negative, awful baggage I hadn’t really dealt with attached. There have been times when I felt burdened by him asking about sex, but we’ve been pretty awesome at communicating about this, and he has made it abundantly clear he wants me to be happy and feel safe and he’s totally fine with things the way they are, and things have progressed exponentially, and I’ve gotten a lot more comfortable initiating, and do it more often.
But I feel like I’m still not where I want to be with this, I guess? I used to be REALLY into sex all the time every time, and I guess I just haven’t gotten comfortable yet with the way my sexuality’s changed and the way my sex drive has virtually vanished over the past few years, as opposed to how comfortable and happy I was being sexual, often, before. I feel like part of me is missing, and I guess I feel like it’s my responsibility to get it back, and because I haven’t or can’t, we’re both missing out on more intimacy/sex in our relationship.
I know that guilt isn’t a reasonable emotion to have about this, but I still feel it anyways, and it’s been super hard to admit to myself and him how hard this is.
Thanks for talking, it’s really helpful to talk to someone about this, I’ve been struggling a lot. <3
ETA: had to delete this from the main thread and repost here, not sure why this didn’t post as a reply originally…
A few thoughts:
1) “Reasonable” isn’t a useful standard for emotions. You feel what you feel. The only way to move past a feeling is to acknowledge and name it and let yourself feel it.
2) Libidos are not fixed things, even without the addition of trauma. They ebb and flow and there’s nothing saying that the way you feel now is the way you will always feel. Everything is temporary. Your sex drive may eventually go back to what it used to be; it may not. Give yourself permission to mourn what you’ve lost, but don’t get so caught up in the memory of what used to be that you are unable to appreciate what is.
3) If you have gone from not even being able to kiss to being able to initiate sex, that is HUGE! That is an enormous amount of change. Next time you start to feel bad about how far you have to go, remember how far you have come.
4) Intimacy and sex aren’t necessarily the same thing! I’m sure you know that, but remember that there are ways to be emotionally and physically intimate with each other that don’t involve sex. Embrace those.
I am glad we have a community here where we can talk about these things! <3
ME TOO your words are like a warm fuzzy blanket I’ve just wrapped my heart in, thank you <3 You are so totally right about everything you wise woman of the forest you. I feel infinity better, goddess bless The Toast!! It is time to be more forgiving of myself, give myself a break, and feel good about what’s happening in the moment, no matter what it is, and even if it’s not where I want to be forever (this is also totally applicable to literally everything else that’s happening in my life right now too). I am a fierce sex goddess no matter what, and you are a fierce precious awesome part of this community. <3
ETA: is anyone else having trouble posting replies? Mine are ending up basically everywhere else except where I want them to be
This is a dynamic that is close to my heart (sometimes due to hormonal birth control, sometimes due to unpacked trust issues from previous relationships, sometimes because life makes a person too tired for sex, sometimes because I get too far up my own ass and forget that sex is even a thing). I can relate to everything you said, especially the part about sex being the best thing ever once upon a time.
What worked for me was figuring out how to initiate in a way that also turned me on. (This is maybe going to be a little graphic.)
I realized that his way of initiating tends to make me feel defensive: I do not like the gatekeeper pose. And the idea of initiating also makes me defensive sometimes, because what if I initiate and then don’t want to go through with it? I don’t want to be a tease (having been on the other end of that dynamic in one relationship, I know it can make a person feel sad and rejected).
But: blow jobs.
Blow jobs are a thing I can initiate and enjoy. No one complains about getting a blow job, even if one doesn’t get to “finish.” I get to enjoy being in control and also giving pleasure to my partner, and if I don’t feel like getting sexy myself, no big deal! He feels connected to me and I feel satisfied AND free of guilt.
More often than not, though, the “being in control and also giving pleasure to my partner” ends up, uh, working for me. Probably 50% of the time I initiate the BJ, I end up wanting to have the sex.
It’s been really helpful for getting past the conversations and negotiation and all the brain-baggage that we’ve packed into our sex life.
I realize that not everyone likes to do this particular sexy time thing, and not everyone has the same control issues I have, but this works for me.
I realized that his way of initiating tends to make me feel defensive: I do not like the gatekeeper pose. And the idea of initiating also makes me defensive sometimes, because what if I initiate and then don’t want to go through with it?
This is so, so exactly a feeling I can relate to. One of the reasons I know I don’t always like the idea of initiating is because I get scared that, once initiated, I’ll realize I don’t want to keep going and I’m afraid I won’t be able to express it – that’s something that’s been really hard for me in the past, not in the cases of the assaults, but other times hooking up with randos, or even a past partner, not really being into it, and not being able to say anything to communicate that I’m not into it. No idea where that issue originated but it makes the thought of initiating feel more like I’m about to get in over my head and not be able to get back out and that’s hugely scary, even now with a partner who stops whenever I tell him to, and sometimes even when I don’t, because he pays attention to my body language.
Also the brain-baggage bit, I think sometimes I’m too far up my own ass/in my own head about sex and that’s part of the problem (she said, analyzing herself further). This is really helpful to hear, thank you for sharing. Oral sex isn’t something I do nearly enough (having loved, in the past, giving and receiving), and that’s a thing I can think about without getting all potentially freaked out because I get to be in control. Also then it’s something I’M doing so I don’t have to feel like a gatekeeper or passive (which happens sometimes when I’m not fully 100% positive sex is something I feel like doing in the moment). Maybe it doesn’t always have to be that sex act in particular, but I get so up in my own head about sex and have kind of locked myself into a certain way of thinking about how we have sex (e.g. will this trigger me, do I really want to do this right now, even when I’m enjoying it) that has made it really difficult to enjoy being in the moment, with my partner, who is a babe, and making both of us feel good.
UGH THANK YOU FOR YOUR WORDS, it’s so reassuring to talk to other people who have gone through/are going through similar things, too long I have been lost in the wilderness of my own self-convos instead of working things out using perspective.
Look here, we’re starting a club of People With Their Heads Far Enough Up Their Asses* That They Forget They Like Sex.
*interchangeable with In Their Own Heads
Hand to god, the other thing that has helped? Weed. Definitely helps me get OUT of my own head for enough of a minute to be like, “oh yeah, self, we like this!”
There is a thing about GIVING the pleasure that makes it both completely within your power to control AND a selfless gift. I’m pretty into that dynamic.
You mention not knowing where the issue originated. I haven’t been assaulted or abused, and most of my long-term relationships have been relatively healthy (I think, anyway), so I don’t know if it’s a reaction to what you’ve been through or not (aside: I’m sorry that happened to you and I respect the hell out of the work you’ve done to cope). For me, what I’ve noticed when looking back is that, in all my relationships where my partner was really into me (and respectful, and cute, and fun, and great at the sexing), once the newness wears off, I go into “meh” mode. When I was with someone who wasn’t as into me, or was unavailable in some way? Totally down to bone constantly (and pretty miffed about not getting it enough).
I haven’t examined that beyond a “want what you can’t have” thing.
And, I will talk about this all day, so you’re welcome!
Well if starting a club helps I’m all for it :P. It’s good to be reminded that talking about sex doesn’t have to be DIRE so much of the time.
I’ve def. tried drinking as a lubricant (no access to weed, easily at least), but usually it ends up making things worse because I pass the point of ‘feeling sexy’ into ‘horribly maudlin and reactionary.’ So that’s mostly off the table, which sucks, because I used to love drunk sex. And sober sex! But drunk sex was always messy and fun, until, you know, it wasn’t.
Maybe part of it is a ‘meh’ thing, or the opposite of ‘want what you can’t have’ – sexuality is friggin weird and complicated and I don’t understand it even when it has nothing to do with past traumas. Nice underwear helps… Not being flippant, but having nice sexy things to adorn oneself with usually makes me feel better about things. As long as wearing it doesn’t feel like a commitment to initiate, which of course, sometimes it does, BECAUSE REASONS.
*sigh*
TRUTH.
Sexy outfits and shaved legs have helped me (except for that I tend to get UNREASONABLY RESENTFUL while shaving my legs. *muttering in the shower* Life was so much better when I was single and didn’t have to shave my legs if I didn’t feel like it. *mumble mumble*)
Sometimes I think that my past as a person who only ever thought about sex and rock’n’roll has done Present Me a disservice. I like other things too! It’s ok to not think about sex for a month (or five). Why is it weeeeeeeeeeird?
Also, getting off the pill put me back in touch with my libido, which was nice. That change made me feel…sane.
Haha, I get the same way – “why do I have to get all the sexy outfits” (because I like them) “HE never has to shave” (because I really like his stubble) etc etc. I should be Sexy Grumpy for Halloween because that is basically who I am.
Yeah, Past Me to Present Me would be like, grrrl whatchoo doin’ with those sweatpants, today is for fishnets, much like every day, while Present Me is like, but no, sweatpants are comfy, and also hopefully this way less men will look at me and I’ll feel less like punching all of them. Which is… sad and unfortunate, except sweatpants really ARE that comfy and I lub them.
Getting off the pill helped, and then I tried the Nuva Ring, and then after I got off that my sex drive kind of plummeted. Other things happened too that affected my sex drive, but I will forever be resentful to those experiences with hormonal birth control,and it’s made me extremely hesitant to try getting back on it. I’ve talked to my gyno about an IUD, but I dunno. I really don’t want my libido to disappear any more than it already has. That’s like, my only exercise method. I needz it, however infrequently it happens!! How else am I supposed to get my cardio I ask you
If it is helpful, I have a copper IUD, and since there are no hormones, it has had no effect on my libido or my natural cycle (my cramps are a little worse than they used to be, and which days are heaviest are a little different, but the hormonal fluctuations of mood and libido are the same).
I was thinking about the copper IUD! Specifically for the non-hormonal reason. I get pretty bad cramps though, and I’m not super enthused about doing something that will make them worse… I’ve talked to my gyno about it a little bit and she recommended the Skyla IUD, it is hormonal but it’s supposed to be a low dosage, and since they’re being released through the uterine lining won’t affect MY hormonal balance nearly as much as the pill (so she says). It’s good to hear from other people about the copper IUD, I’ve read some things on the interwebz but you are a real person and a Toastie and therefore more helpful!
I do Weight Watchers, so sometimes, afterwards, I have to ask, “Would you rate that as low intensity, medium intensity, or high intensity? How many points do you think I just earned?”
If I earn at least 4 points, I make him make me a sandwich. #fatkid
I will join that club please.
I can’t offer advice specifically, but I can point you toward Emily Nagoski and her blog, The Dirty Normal, which is some of the smartest and most sensitive and generally awesome writing I’ve read about arousal and good sex and differences in sex drives and the balance between mental and physical in sex and all those things. Her more recent stuff is a bit sparse (I think she’s working on a book), but a good long dive into the archives might be helpful.
Her stuff on responsive desire helped me figure out some of how my brain works with sex stuff and helped me be more comfortable with “this is probably how my body does sex things a lot of the time.” And usually her writing style just makes me feel, well, better.
This website looks AWESOME and I am super excited to dig into it!!! Thank you, Beaskses <3 I think this is exactly what I’ve been looking for, for a long time.
I don’t think you’re “training him wrong”. You could always have a conversation with him about the fact that you say “convince me” when you are mentally on board but need some help getting there physically, but that that isn’t blanket consent to try to talk you into sex. I’m assuming he doesn’t routinely try to cajole you into having sex with him when you have expressed that you’re not interested.
I’m so baffled by the horrendous sex all these douchecanoes are having. Some of the hottest experiences of my life have followed explicit questions about whether you want to do XYZ.
Right?? In what world is someone that you want to have sex with saying that they want to have sex with you too NOT hot?
Oh my god yes. The hottest thing in the world is a person you like and trust turning to you and being like, “All I can think about is doing x to you, may I please?”
“I really want to [verb] your [noun]. Do you want me to [verb] your [noun] with my [noun]?”
::fans self desperately::
*[verb]s salaciously*
I love that the subhead of the consent article is, “And it won’t stop rape.”
WHAT? A law that won’t make illegal behavior zap out of existence? Well, fuck! Shut down the legislatures, kids, I guess this “passing laws” thing just isn’t working to prevent crime.
I hear that people continue to commit murder, despite that having been illegal for pretty much ever. Welp, we tried that law, guess it’s time to just chalk this one up to experience.
Um, isn’t this Reason’s main philosophy? Seriously, what is wrong with these people?
Yeeeesh, that consent article. Good hell. That clip is all I need to know….to justify BURNING EVERYTHING.
I always say that one of the reasons I continued to see my now-husband was that, in contrast to a lot of other men I’d dated who tried to push my boundaries or work around them or whatever, when it looked like sexy happenings were going to occur said “what do you want to do?” and checked in a few times during “good?” (affirmative consent doesn’t have to involve full sentences!) which was entirely different but welcome! And made even that awkward first fumbling worth checking into more. It was very welcome, to the point that the “oh ha what that was an implicit or explicit no? surely you’re not serious” attitude of dudez was never okay again.
Oh my god yes, my boyfriend asked me before we did everything. It was very sweet. And hot!
I’ll never forget when he was like “I want to have sex now!” after dating for quite a while. It was totally a question, and the answer was totally an enthusiastic yes.
Nicole – for your link roundup consideration: http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/10/st…
A compelling argument for global warming imo.
OT, completely OT–if one’s boss gives on a bottle of wine at the beginning of a work day alongside a card, in which is written the following:
“We always say we should indulge during the work day–it’s your birthday, I say go for it!”
AND the aforementioned bottle of wine is a screwtop AND aforementioned boss is gone for the afternoon….
I mean
that’s totally permission, right
Sometimes, when people complain about enthusiastic consent, I see signs that they didn’t date a lot and are now in a long term relationship? In a long term relationship (oh god I’m talking about my sex life) it’s fairly normal for one person to be like “Sex?” and the other to be like “UGH, but LAUNDRY.” or “Today was the worst, so maybe backrubs forever instead?” Sex is still on the table in these situations, but there’s not a lot of enthusiasm, per se.
The “didn’t date a lot, now in a long term relationship” thing is my own history, and while I was tentatively onboard with enthusiastic consent from the beginning, I was concerned that my relationship didn’t meet these standards. I kept my mouth shut, because obviously when you are partners it’s OK to be a little more open about ambivalence towards sex, and obviously it’s more important to give tools and words to people in shitty situations than it is to do the same for people who are in a pretty good place, but maybe other people are very very invested in not having some aspect of their lives be considered unacceptable.
Could we come up with vocabulary which can be a subset of enthusiastic consent which means “I like you, I like having sex with you, but you are going to have to do some housework or emotional work or something before I’m in a state to find sex appealing, and even then, no guarantees, but seriously, you are my favorite person and I don’t mind if you try to convince me to have sex via <cough> taking off most of your clothes and helping me fold laundry with like music on and ridiculous dancing. ”
That is; there is superficial similarity between the above and garden variety whinging until sex occurs: but there is an obvious difference.
OhGod please tell me if I’m wrong because that is information I need to know.
This is why I’m not big on the language of “enthusiastic consent,” actually — I mean, if your laundry-folding scenario happened in my relationship, I would definitely feel like it had been consensual, and I’d say the same for its cousins “I’m not really feeling it, but the ovulation tracker says today’s the day, sooo…” and “I’m not really feeling it, but I want you to be happy, perhaps we could compromise on a blowjob?” and similar. But I would not describe any of those as enthusiastic, per se, and I don’t think enthusiasm is really a great place to set the bar of consent, especially, as you say, within long-term relationships.
Edit: as far as there being an obvious difference — yeah, the difference for me is that, although I may sometimes say “I don’t know, I’m very tired” but be open to being “convinced,” I feel absolutely confident that if I say “No, seriously, it’s not gonna happen tonight” the “convincing” will stop.
As I understand it, the legal standard is AFFIRMATIVE consent, not enthusiastic. Mostly because the standard has historically been “she consents until/unless she says no”, and the assumption ought to be that until you have a green light, you cannot go.
Sometimes people in relationships consent to sex they’re not super into for a number of reasons; as long as that consent is given without coercion, it’s fine. (if you agree b/c you want to make him happy b/c you love him, that’s fine; if you agree because he will beat you if you don’t, that’s not really consent)
Is Shel Silverstein appropriate commentary on the whole “yes/didn’t say no” thing, or is this poem problematic? I’m having trouble seeing through my lens of “but I love him.” https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/20656-the-bagpip…
Well, in spite of some perhaps not-enthusiastically-consented-to squeezing, it seems that in the end the turtle does waddle off to Woedom (LOVE THAT) for lack of having received affirmative consent. So a good moral overall, I feel.
Waddle on to Woedom, all ye End-of-Sex whiners. Waddle right on off to Woedom.
Every time I see one of these anti-Affirmative Consent articles, all I can think is, “what kind of awful boring bad sex are these people having that they can’t tell the different between YES! and any other thing?”