Nicole Cliffe (The Toast): We’ve literally been in business two months now, so anything I say in terms of its prescriptive power is ridiculous because it’s like we’re those people in 1992 who are like, “Who wants to buy spatulas online?” Until we’re profitable, I don’t think what I have to say has much relevance to this conversation.
But we pay everybody. We’ve had two people do things for free. We didn’t ask, they offered. When we first started, we wanted to give everybody $100, but of course there’s no money, so that’s a bad idea. As a result, now we’re like “How about $50 or $25?” And people usually say yes, which is great. It’s also depressing because sometimes people say, “Yeah, that’s pretty good.” I’m like, that can’t possibly be good. But people will do it, because [other] people tend not to pay. Like Dan was saying, if it’s something that involved a lot of research, a longer piece, like over 1,500 words, we’re more likely to go $100. Ideally some day when we do have money, we’d like to pay people more than that. But we’ll wait until we’re in the black to make that decision.
Would you like to listen to Nicole Cliffe, Dan Kois, and Alexis Madrigal talk about paying writers with Scratch Mag? Of course you would. You’re a very smart person, and interested in our new economy. There are so many things you can learn from Nicole Cliffe, like how to work from home:
Cliffe: [My kid is] Twenty-one months. I do that work from home thing, right, where I’m hiding from her.
How to create an environment in which poetry flourishes:
Cliffe: I was saying that I love poetry, we have to have poetry on the site, interesting new poets! Great things! Nope, it’s a disaster. Don’t ever do that. Poetry’s a joke. It is. It doesn’t exist.
Does poetry exist? You be the judge.
Tags: alexis madrigal, dan kois, does poetry exist, jane friedman, manjula martin, meta, money, roundtable, scratch mag, slate, the atlantic, who pays writers
I’d just like to say that I really like the fewer, better posts model. Thank you guys for it.
Me too. Part of what makes this site easy to incorporate into my reading habits is that I know when I come, I’ll probably be able to catch up with what’s been posted since last time I was here. When I can’t do that–when I go back to a site and find pages and pages of new posts I haven’t seen before–I get overwhelmed and don’t want to go to that website anymore.
And I didn’t even realize it was fewer posts. It seems like plenty to me!
I love poetry, for the record. Especially yours.
There once was a website the-toast
whose postings I liked the most
also something about misandry because obviously and also why am I rhyming in 2013 aren’t we beyond rhyming by now?
And how
More poetry! Please! I know it seems like it doesn’t exist … but it kind of does? In my heart?
a semi indie feminist website
Nothing which involves money from men can be truly indie.
s/men/THEMAN/
TRUTH.
But, it can still be true to itself. Which is the most important thing, really.
This was a really interesting conversation, and also, thank you guys for paying. I’m a reporter and I hate, hate, hate the write-for-free thing, though I understand why people do it. We’ve allowed our own salaries to be undercut. Or maybe allowed is not the right word. Maybe writing is pretty much valueless. All I know is that I never want to freelance again, God help me.
This is also the truest thing:
“You know, the things that aggravate you about websites are there for a reason. It’s not as though Buzzfeed and HuffPo decide to look that way just because they made that aesthetic choice. Like, this is why they succeed. “
I’m confident this is hopelessly naive, verging on unkind, but:
It’s what makes FLARE, the Daily Fail, and GLAMOUR succeed, too, and I don’t read them, either. Which is snotty, or something, I don’t know.
There just has to be a better damn answer somewhere.
Well, sure! Lots of eyeballs does not correspond to quality. In fact, I’d argue there’s a direct negative correlation. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve done in-depth reporting on an Important Topic only to have the resulting story vanish without a ripple. Then something dumb that took an hour gets tons of attention. People might say they want high-quality content, but most really don’t and the few who really do don’t pay the bills.
I really hope you’re right that there’s another way, but I’m pretty cynical at this point.
I’m grumpily confident the answer is classic Development in the Museums And Culture Industry sense, which is to say: Patronage, so I guess a few of us need to get on being Brian Goldberg and simply bankrolling our own media outlets, old-school. Having lived on patronage before, *full-body shudders.*
/points gently in the direction of the DONATE button
DUDE THE DONATE BUTTON IS TOO SMALL. It took me like 45 seconds to find.
Pshaw, what people spend time on, like your ~150 core audience members (MASSED AND SERRIED RANKS THEREOF) don’t open The Toast at 8:53am EST every day even sometimes Sunday though they know better and close it sometime around nine, sooner in direct proportion to toddler quantity.
THUMBS UP to the comments section!
Thumbs up to comments, and thumbs down to slideshows!
We got the only thumbs up! Nicole loves us! Or tolerates us.
I can definitely understand why the Atlantic and Slate give thumbs down to comments.
Thumbs up to very specific comment sections.
If I had Slate commenters, I would literally never write anything again. I feed off your love and approval.
Nicole I love your happy picture! Actually looking at the camera and smiling! In color! Especially compared to the other two participant’s cliched pics (I’m sure they’re still nice people)
I like it when poetry exists! Please exist more, poetry!
I appreciate how open you two have been about your business model, it’s really interesting to see how blogs are navigating this space. Honestly, it’s great that you pay at all. Even if nobody gets rich freelancing for you, at least you’ve communicated that their writing has value.
We’re starting to make a little money, gang!
YAY!!! I’m so glad to hear it!
EMPHASIS ON THE LITTLE BUT IT’S VERY EXCITING
Haha, the sad reality is that $50 for a piece online is the going rate!
Some great stuff in that roundtable – thanks for doing it, Nicole, and posting it.
I hope in the long-run we can find a better way to pay for the internet and the fabulous things on it. Because right now, man, it’s still so ugly, even at the best sites. The volume you have to turn out – as an editor, as a writer – overwhelms me, really.
Also, nice to know Dan Kois reads blind pitches 😀
Dan Kois is SO NICE.
This is one of the sites I’d be happiest to see thrive! So actually this reminded me to donate un petit peu of money (cough, becauseiuseanadblocker*, cough.)
*i just reread this and it looks like “because i use a nad blocker.” also accurate, so it’s fine.
… my big takeaway is that Choire is pronounced “Corry”?!? Sorry, I’ve had three glasses of wine, and all that money stuff went right over the ol’ noggin.
I will always, always click through on poetry. Or things that look like they might be poetry. Or things with weird line breaks that might be accidental but might possibly be poetry. This is my solemn vow, my lifelong obligation, and I will rise to it.
I will always, always click through on poetry. Or things that look like they might be poetry. Or things with weird line breaks that might be accidental but might possibly be poetry. This is my solemn vow, my lifelong obligation, and I will rise to it.
These roundtables always make me want to lie down. As a writer, I used to crave transparency, but as it turns out the landscape is very bleak. The most I have ever been paid for anything I’ve written on the web is $250, and all of those pieces were well over 1,000 words (though, admittedly, they didn’t have to be that long).
I appreciate, on some level, the transparency offered by The Toast and other websites that are comfortable revealing their SECRETS. Really, I do. But the sad truth is the Internet is not a place for people trying to make a living as a writer, period. There is no magical site that pays a fair wage, unless you willfully give the short shrift to stories you care about. I was deeply honored to write for The Toast because it’s a site that matters to me, a site that I read every day. The very idea that Mallory and Nicole wanted to publish something I wrote MEANS something to me. And while I realize that anyone who’s bothering to read this comment intuitively understands that the commenters here at The Toast are special and perfect, as opposed to every other asshole at almost every other site, believe me, trolls take on a whole new horrible aspect when you’re a writer who cares about the comments. (Fuck Franzen.) The Toast! It’s just an amazing Internet anomaly, the comments here, and deep down I realize it must be at least in part because it’s monitored (right?), though some part of me hopes that every last person who comes here just happens to be the best. Also obviously witchcraft.
Anyway, I was really interested in Nicole’s comments about what people say they want vs. what they actually want. I know I for one treasure the so-called Rookie model, and was excited by (relieved by?) The Toast’s early claim to a few posts/day. Then again, the new “filler” posts with links or whatever, I honestly enjoy those, too.
I’m dumb at business, but sometimes I wonder if analytic tools haven’t quite caught up to the way in which people actually consume the Internet, much in the way that TV ratings still can’t fully account for viewing habits in this post-appointment television environment. I refuse to believe the whole world is really so enamored of gifs and listicles. Keep doing what you do, guys. And once you have enough doubloons and your rightful empire of mini-ponies I have every confidence you’ll spread the wealth. <3
I mean, the chatty linky posts are on the newer side, but we’re still only posting 6 or so times a day; we’re not updating on the half-hour. *showers doubloons on you*
These roundtables always make me want to lie down. As a writer, I used to crave transparency, but as it turns out the landscape is very bleak. The most I have ever been paid for anything I’ve written on the web is $250, and all of those pieces were well over 1,000 words (though, admittedly, they didn’t have to be that long).
I appreciate, on some level, the transparency offered by The Toast and other websites that are comfortable revealing their SECRETS. Really, I do. But the sad truth is the Internet is not a place for people trying to make a living as a writer, period. There is no magical site that pays a fair wage, unless you willfully give the short shrift to stories you care about. I was deeply honored to write for The Toast because it’s a site that matters to me, a site that I read every day. The very idea that Mallory and Nicole wanted to publish something I wrote MEANS something to me. And while I realize that anyone who’s bothering to read this comment intuitively understands that the commenters here at The Toast are special and perfect, as opposed to every other asshole at almost every other site, believe me, trolls take on a whole new horrible aspect when you’re a writer who cares about the comments. (Fuck Franzen.) The Toast! It’s just an amazing Internet anomaly, the comments here, and deep down I realize it must be at least in part because it’s monitored (right?), though some part of me hopes that every last person who comes here just happens to be the best. Also obviously witchcraft.
Anyway, I was really interested in Nicole’s comments about what people say they want vs. what they actually want. I know I for one treasure the so-called Rookie model, and was excited by (relieved by?) The Toast’s early claim to a few posts/day. Then again, the new “filler” posts with links or whatever, I honestly enjoy those, too.
I’m dumb at business, but sometimes I wonder if analytic tools haven’t quite caught up to the way in which people actually consume the Internet, much in the way that TV ratings still can’t fully account for viewing habits in this post-appointment television environment. I refuse to believe the whole world is really so enamored of gifs and listicles. Keep doing what you do, guys. And once you have enough doubloons and your rightful empire of mini-ponies I have every confidence you'll spread the wealth. <3
I really appreciate that you guys pay your writers–that’s really important and I’m so glad you do it. One of my goals for the next year is to start pitching articles and since you guys do pay, you’re definitely on my list of potential markets.
I really appreciate that you guys pay your writers–that's really important and I'm so glad you do it. One of my goals for the next year is to start pitching articles and since you guys do pay, you're definitely on my list of potential markets.
Of course poetry exists. It exists in the songs of Donald Fagen and Sheryl Crow. It exists in the comedy stylings of Jeff Foxworthy and Rita Rudner. It exists in the blog posts of Ta-Nehisi Coates and EJ Graff.
It’s verse that doesn’t exist. So sad.
Why I love Nicole Cliffe:
1. Kermit Bob Cratchitt
2. GIF
There are other reasons (Benedict Cumberbatch love), but those are the most important right now.
What was really fun about this roundtable was forgetting that it was a video chat, and being disgustingly sweaty and in a baseball cap for it, which I think is the reason they included NO SCREENCAPS.
I was so thrilled and pleased both times I’ve heard back from you guys with not only an ACCEPTANCE but an offer of PAYMENT. Maybe it’s not the amount you’d ideally like to be able to shell out, but it’s substantial enough to make me feel validated and recognized as a professional. And this transparency is even fucking greater. Thank you. And yeah, the amount and quality of content you unroll each week is perfect. Thank you for all you do. I’m not kissing ass here. What you guys are doing is rare. And your taste in poetry knocks the shit out of slate’s.