Nicole – EDITH, you have made a book, and I am in it! How did this come to be?
Edith – Yeah! A lovely editor at Amazon got in touch a few months back about potentially putting together a Kindle Series featuring frequent Hairpin contributors, and I was like “YES!” and we thought “travel” as a topic was the way to go. And lo, here it is: An Experience Definitely Worth Allegedly Having: Travel Stories From the Hairpin.
Also, a Kindle Series is a collection of essays (or whatever) that comes out as a serial, with each installment getting beamed to your e-reader (and smartphones and tablets with the appropriate app) upon publication, which for us is every two weeks. To continue the list of less-exciting details: it’s $1.99, which buys all the essays, although it’ll take a few months for them all to come out. But you can buy the thing any time, and get all the ones that have already been published, or buy it way later, once it’s all over, and get them all at once. Or buy right now, and get the very short introduction plus the wonderful first installment, by the excellent and hilarious Carrie Frye. Or never buy! Or whatever.
Nicole – Which one is your favourite? MINE, RIGHT? No, you don’t have to answer that, I know it’s mine.
Writing about travel is such a weird, personal thing. Or, I guess, not necessarily? I think there probably are people who write really informatively and objectively about travel and never tell you about how they hung their underwear to dry over a radiator. Who are the travel writers you admire?
Edith – Oh, I don’t know. And I doubt anyone would really give a shit who my favorite travel writers are.
Let’s make this more interesting. How’s The Toast going?
Nicole – OKAY, let’s do this! Good! Oh, man, it’s weird. I think about The Toast all the time. I mean, I thought about The Hairpin, but not at night, or anything. And I’m never satisfied with it, and I can’t pretend I’m not in charge when stuff breaks or just doesn’t suit me. And then the other day someone was all “this is just The Hairpin,” and I was all “defensive explain redirect” because I am constantly thinking oh god wait I can’t do/say that/call this that. As if I am not more obsessed with worrying about just rehashing The Hairpin then some random commenter is!
But I really, really love it. And I like what we’re running, and I’m writing stuff, and Mallory literally never stops writing stuff, it’s like she’s been cursed by a witch. And she’s funnier than I am, which I don’t have to resent anymore, because I profit from her funniness now.
And then there’s the obvious cinematic experience of “well, I’m going to do things THIS way instead of THIS way,” and then the ensuing realization that people do things in a particular way because it is basically impossible to do them the way you are envisioning as an alternative, and then you feel like a child demanding a candy house.
“We’ll run more poetry!”
Oh, wait, literally NO ONE CLICKS THROUGH TO POETRY. Never. Not one person. No one has ever read a poem, did you know that? Ever. The famous poets are just famous because they had nicer cover art so people were willing to put them, unread, on shelves. So now I am accepting one poem a month, so that we do not hemorrhage money, and am telling everyone else to go read their wonderful poems on a street corner or something.
And then, too, editing is such a learned skill. I am still teetering on the border between “just make it better” and “here are some suggestions for how to do that.”
So, essentially, I feel like I’ve gone from doing something which was really clear and manageable and easy to something which is really hard and alternately terrifying and immensely joyous, which is also exactly what it has been like to go from not having a kid to having a kid, I guess.
And it’s nice to do it with Mallory, because we came in really conscious that we were both the goofy froofy non-detail-oriented members of the team, like we were both Chaos Muppets, so both of us have really tried to put on our serious hats and not fuck things up. And, too, it’s hard to meaningfully share completely equal power, but we made a pact that we could only ever complain about the other person TO the other person, and it hasn’t really come up yet. We’ve had pieces we didn’t necessarily agree about, and we’ve trusted each other to go with the stronger or better-expressed opinion on that.
So, that’s how that’s going. How are you dealing with not being on the ground on The Hairpin on a daily basis? Unless you are this hookah-smoking caterpillar that advises Emma on things. I had to sort of consciously stop reading, although when things come up on social media I click through and enjoy them, because it was that thing you told me about not reading the other people who do what you do, so your mind remains clear.
Edith – Haha, oh I wish I were a hookah-smoking caterpillar. But no, I’m not doing much of anything, so that’s…whatever it is.
And I hear you on so much of this. The all-consuming worry! Yesss, I recall it fondly. Enjoy! Haha. Also good luck with: “we made a pact that we could only ever complain about the other person TO the other person.” Just kidding, I CAN actually imagine you somehow keeping that up. Maybe. (Ed. note – There is nothing to complain about Nicole; there is no garbage within her soul.)
It does look like things are off to a great start. And yeah, the poetry thing. Patricia Lockwood crushed it the other day, though, on The Awl.
Also, with what money are you paying contributors?
*Tents fingers*
JK, you can sidestep that one if you want. Haha. But, most crucially, how much are you going to pay me for this interview???
Nicole – NOT A DIME. We figure if we run out of money and no one gives us any more (we’re starting to make some money, thank God; like, we’re not in the black or anything yet, but we’re hitting our own extremely-modest goals for the first few months), Mallory and I will just write 4-5 features a day between the two of us and conduct a lot of free interviews until we die in a cave with calloused fingerpads.
No, we have ponied up our own money (or, mostly, our publisher and basically my husband have [THIS INDIE FEMINIST WIZARD WEBSITE BROUGHT TO YOU INDIRECTLY BY WHITE MEN FROM QUANTITATIVE HEDGE FUNDS AND BIG LAW] (Ed. note – This is fine; let’s take all their money and create a surreal, misandro-queer empire with it, leaving them with nothing but ashes and the memory of power), and Mallory is writing way more content than I am), an amount we feel comfortable losing if the whole thing goes pear-shaped, which it might! IT’S NOT LIKE PLACES DON’T PAY PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY HATE WRITERS. They don’t pay because monetization is a real bitch, and also because if you don’t want to go to jail you need to engage in elaborate tax-related paperwork for every single person who draws a picture of a puking baguette for you. So, it’s a gamble! We’re also paying, like, $50-100 for things. $100 for really long, intensively-researched things, $50 for most other things. I directly respond to people with “can we pay you this insulting sum of money?” and then people are usually “yes, that is actually okay,” bless them.
We’re just trying to run everything else on a pretty shoestring budget, too. Like, every time something breaks or looks terrible, one of us is literally googling “fix tech thing” and the other one is dancing a jig to distract the readers from noticing. Which means our budget is like 80% paying writers, 10% hosting/tech-y stuff and 10% buying cat food and dancing shoes for Mallory.
Oh, Patricia Lockwood! Oh, my God. That Poem. I finally read the comments yesterday, and I cannot decide how I feel about them. I know Choire murdered a bunch of them, which is good, but I also think the correct amount of mental detritus was left; the poem is stronger because you get to see the rape culture that created it. I mean, if anyone ever asks me what rape culture is or proclaims not to believe in it, I will just send them that link. Done.
Here’s a question for you: how the hell did you run The Hairpin on your own for large chunks of time? Like, literally, what did your day look like? I seriously want to know.
I also just miss you, and talking to you all day. I think that when you’re a writer for a website but not a Real Editor with actual responsibility, it’s like being a slacker non-custodial parent who likes to show up with ice cream and bow out if anything gets messy or cries (to return to overblown parenting metaphors), and then you can always have Mom Edith handle things and be the accountable one, but when it’s yours, it’s yours.
Edith – Thanks for this, Nicole. I miss you too! And yeah. Money, it’s a bitch! I also love it so much.
And to answer your question, I just spent a lot of time on my computer. Like, 5 a.m. to 7 p.m., vaguely. And then a couple more hours at night, when I wasn’t doing anything. It was hard to measure because there was a lot of it that was doable without seeming like work. Like answering emails or reading submissions or whatever. Just doing them as they came in. But yeah I didn’t really do anything else. And I have never been super efficient with time-management, either — so a lot of that was just chatting and doing whatever. It maybe sounds like long hours, but I was essentially “fucking around online” for a job, which was amazing and made it so fun. I loved it.
Also, yes, I love your story in the Hairpin Travel series. Although at first it seemed kind of crazy that you chose to describe 10 of your most astonishing overseas sexual exploits in such eye-popping detail, I am now–and, honestly, have always been–truly grateful for it. Thank you, Nicole.
Nicole – I am mostly really excited to read the other stories, because I haven’t! I know it’s Chiara Atik and Carrie Frye and Jenna Wortham and Jim Behrle and Maria Bustillos and Anne Helen Petersen, but I have absolutely no idea what they’re talking about. TRAVEL, dumbass. Travel. Thanks so much, Edith!
(they reach out and pretend to hug each other from different apartments at their own, lonely laptops)
Nicole – WAIT, did you have sex with Chris Evans? Edith? Edith?
For extra information and weekly update posts and weird pictures of the authors, please consult the Hairpin Travel Tumblr.
Tags: beyond meta, books, BUY THE BOOK WE WANT TO DEFEAT JON KRAKAUER, edith zimmerman, interviews, meta, the hairpin, the most meta you could get, travel
The last question.. WUT?
In response to this, I’m guessing.
Well, I figured that, I just didn’t know if there have been recent developments or if there was an innuendo within the interview itself. Like maybe it’s an acrostic interview where all of the first letters spell out “Edith and Chris, together 4eva.”
Good point. It may well be that there is Edith Zimmerman gossip that I’m not entirely caught up on 🙂
EEEDDDDDDIIIIIIIIIITTTTHHHH. <3 <3 <3 Oh man, this whole thing is fascinating. I have no idea how websites work or function! I just know that a collection of lovely words show up on my screen at intervals and then I go read them and make smartass comments in the margins, and I have no idea how any of it GETS THERE.
Also: I love that great crazy GQ article, and I’m sorry if it means a decade of dumb questions but I’m still glad it happened because I love every goofy bit of it.
AhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! *dies*
Edith and Nicole, together again, for one brief, sparkling interview. I miss you Edith! And your e-reader will be in my e-hands, pronto. Great insight on thehairpin, the-toast, and work and life. So many feelings, mostly nostalgic?
NICOLE! I really hope you wrote what Edith said you wrote. Mine is so weird and mopey and Grandmaish!
No way! The second I saw your name on that list I said to myself: Sold! I bet I will like it because I am a mopey traveler myself.
I talk a lot about how studying abroad makes adopt disordered eating habits! Also WRITING LETTERS, writing all the letters, not having a phone, etc. etc.
OO that sounds great. I want it all nooowwwwwuuuuh.
Ahhh this is fascinating AND I got to re-read that Chris Evans interview.
I love how this ended up turned around, with mostly Nicole answering questions.
But no worries, I already clicked through and purchased the series – no-brainer.
Yeah, the interview part of the interview was missing, but I enjoyed it anyway.
just got this book on my kindle…can’t wait to read the travel tales.
like we were both Chaos Muppets
If The Toast ever needs an intern whose job is to be all Order Muppet all the time… call me. I am basically Bert. I will accept payment in high-quality oatmeal, matching sets of bottlecaps, and top-of-the-line paperclips.
This, this is just the best. I love when people I love talk to each other!!!
also, 1. *throws away poems* and 2. I found this peek behind the curtain of both my most beloved websites fascinating, so thank you!!!
The comments for that powerful Lockwood poem ran a whole gamut that was friendly, nice, touching, galvanizing, bothersome, infuriating, disturbing and downright insane. I stayed out of that one, felt there was nothing more to add, but reading that poem and then the comments was quite the internet experience. Heavy and dense internet moments.
The Awl always has a couple of trolls in the comments, but that piece brought out a whole new level of awful. I had to stop reading them about halfway through, but I loved Nicole’s point that the bad comments were validation for the poem.
Proves the maxim true: the comments on any piece about feminism justify feminism….
This is the first I’m hearing about it, and I”m just gonna stay the hell away from that. I don’t have the spoons.
What if I want to read the book but I don’t have a Kindle?? 🙁
I have the same issue 🙁
You can download free apps that will let you read it very easily on any Mac, and I’m sure there’s something for PCs that works just fine too!
Correct! Amazon Cloud Reader is the appropriate thing to google.
Nicole I have a Nook how’s that???? Nicole???? r u listening????
I officially just spent $1.99 on the travel series! Yay!
I seriously can’t wait to read this.
Sorry poets, I am That Person not clicking through.
I just did a site search and clicked on all the poems because I feel bad for them. Not sure if I’ll READ them, but it’s a start…
I click through sometimes, but only if the beginning of the poem grabs me. Or if it has a lot of comments and I want to know what all the fuss is about.
I have to be in the right mood for poetry, and often that mood is not the same mood I am in when I am internet surfing. But a few of the poems that they used to publish on the Hairpin were so compelling that they made me click through. Also, often my reason for clicking through is that I want to see what people are saying about an issue, and there is not much to say usually about poetry other than: “I liked this line.”
I was surprised by that comment because I always read the poems!!!! Baffling!
Me too! I read All the Things on the Toast (which is why I am commenting on things 5+ days after the fact whatever) even the poems and I don’t even like poetry.
EDIIIIIITH! I’m glad you’re alive and well! Also, do you have any sway in making your e-book available in Canada? I want to give you my Canadian dollars!
And Europe!
Yes, another vote for Canada please!
But Nicole and Mallory, please still be Chaos Muppets a little bit?
I want to change my handle to chaos muppet. It describes me so perfectly.
My main takeaway here is that I should go back and click on all the poetry posts fifty times each.
I’m drooling here (Edith+Nicole+heaing about the back-end of these sites)–thank you for letting us listen in on your awesome and personal conversation! I think the Toast is going amazing–it’s my new #1 site to check. You’re all amazing, seriously.
OH MY GOD you guys I just realized that I forgot to turn off AdBlock for The-Toast.net! Did it now. Done.
Can I mail you guys a couple of nickels or something?
There are few things I love more in life than peeks behind the curtain, thank you for this one.
**Clicks on every banner ad**
First, I click through on ALL THE POEMS, even the ones that purport to be prose poems (because, seriously, that’s either an essay or a story, not a poem) because I seem to have surrounded myself with poets and they’re performing an essential service, even beyond being the best drinking pals in the world.
Second, I will now go buy the hell out of this book, while also admitting that I kind of hate to travel. I like to read about it, I like to think about it, but I hate going and being lost for however many days or being hauled around by well-meaning hosts. I hate not sleeping in my own bed. I hate feeling like my eyes have gone manic and can’t rest on anything because I’m trying to figure out how to not get in the way of people who actually live there and are going to their jobs and are not amused by tourists. Basically, I want to live all the places I want to visit, not visit.
Third, thanks, Edith, for all that you did with the Hairpin. And thanks, Nicole and Mallory, for using your Chaos Muppet skills to make a place that this Order Muppet finds absolutely perfect.
Oh man, I guess I have to get this book. It sounds like it will be better than most travel writing (which, I have to be honest, it turns out I hate with some serious passion).
I want to change my handle to chaos muppet. It describes me so perfectly.
I loved this interview so much. Can Nicole and Edith just gchat randomly every now and then and just throw it up on The Toast, please?
Yo I would totally click on ads on the Toast, except the ONLY thing I ever get is an adsense ads for those panties you’re supposed to menstruate directly into. One time I look at them. One time!
Ahhh that’s weird but what’s also weird is that I’m a little jealous that I’ve never seen that one. I’d click that so hard because, what???
The Google ads are based websites you’ve visited in the past (creepy, right?), so all you have to do is visit the Dear Kate website, and then you can have their ads follow you all over.
I want to know the answer to the last question!
Ahhh that's weird but what's also weird is that I'm a little jealous that I've never seen that one. I'd click that so hard because, what???