There are (of course!) already a handful of articles about why this probably isn’t a good idea, but I’m kind of loving this lame-duck President who’s trying to stick it to as many for-profit colleges as possible before he heads out.
If all 50 states choose to implement the President’s new community college proposal, it could:
Save a full-time community college student $3,800 in tuition per year on average
Benefit roughly 9 million students each year
Under President Obama’s new proposal, students would be able to earn the first half of a bachelor’s degree, or earn the technical skills needed in the workforce — all at no cost to them.
Let’s all take a minute and think about how different our lives would be now if we could have gotten the first half of our bachelor’s degrees for free (stay strong).
Tags: education, hot take i think it’s a good idea, news
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1) Yep, fuck you, for-profit colleges!
2) Yay all around for this!
3) I really hope there is some work on the problem of student loans on deck for this lame-duck President doing Good Things. Because there are still too many people struggling under student loans (or just giving up–I’ve accepted that this is where a chunk of my paycheck will go for the rest of my life). Fix it for the future first, but don’t forget to throw out lifeboats for the rest of us later.
And on the tiniest contrarian note, I do not love the rhetoric of “willing to work for it” and “responsible students,” especially when the requirement is a C average. That’s really “being a student” and “attending class” for the most part.
As a real student who attends class and has a lower-than-C average, no.
(And a 2.5 GPA is a C+, anyways.)
Sorry, didn’t mean to phrase it that badly. I know QPAs can be tough in certain fields/schools/programs/hell, even just bad semesters. I dropped out with a 1.something back in the day before I got it together. But that’s partly why I don’t like the “work for it” language–it assumes that students having problems that may be affecting their GPAs aren’t “responsible” or “willing.” It’s fine to set the QPA requirements, but call them that: requirements, not moral judgments on work and responsibility.
Yeah, I’m definitely not disagreeing with the need for GPA requirements in a system like that, even if they are GPA requirements that I personally would not meet. I agree with your issues with the “work for it language” used, as there are many factors that might lead to a fully responsible, hard-working student to not meet those requirements (requirements that are necessary nevertheless). It just seemed in the comment I initially replied to that you were saying, “Of course, anybody who’s really trying could easily meet those requirements.” I’m sorry if I misinterpreted.
(Kind of off-topic, but do you have any advice re: dropping out with a 1.something and getting it together? Because that’s kind of where I’m at right now.)
I don’t know how universal my experience and advice might be–I was a successful high-school student who had never really tried, so arriving at university was a terrible awakening to how much of a slacker I was. I faffed about for three semesters, trying to do an acting major only because I was pointlessly mad at the English department. When I failed freshman comp for the second time (by not showing up/doing assignments), I took myself off to community college. I took one or two classes a semester while working a soul-sucking mall job until I was finally mature enough to reapply to my university. They took me back and I was able to do something they called “academic renewal,” which wiped my previous transcript–those courses still appeared, but they did not figure toward my total credits or QPA.
My second try was more successful because I had a better understanding of expectations and what kind of workload I could handle. I was also no longer 17 and struggling through low-level depression and high-level freaking out. I also knew I could not work at the mall for the rest of my life and wanted to try to work toward a career that would let me use the skills in writing and arguing and researching I really loved. It worked! (Though that was another long road.) I went on to do a master’s and then a Ph.D. and now I work teaching and advising interdisciplinary students.
I will say, though, that if one of my students told me she was doing the work and attending class and really trying and still having trouble maintaining a 2.5, I’d think there was something going wrong. Either her workload might be too heavy, leaving her with not enough time and energy to focus on the tough classes like she needs to, or her learning style doesn’t match up with the course (not in a woo kind of way, more in a trouble-on-exams kind of way). I’d send her to Academic Development for help with study skills. I’d talk to her about her major path and whether she felt like her skills and abilities line up with the requirements of the field. By the time a student is through general education courses and into her major coursework, I think she should be earning Bs more often than Cs. If not, again, that would be a flag for me, as an advisor, to start talking with her about her major path.
(Um, I may have a lot to say about this.)
Yes, in my case, “going wrong” would be a good way to put it. I’ve had similar problems to those you described, in that I never really had to try in high school and have had trouble adjusting to a heavier workload, but what’s really “gone wrong” has been severe anxiety and depression that’s never been adequately addressed in the past. So of course, the first step to getting back on track academically in my case is addressing those other underlying issues. Anyways, long story short, I failed an entire semester (literally, my fall 2014 semester GPA is a 0.000. The past few months were kind of a rough time), and now I’m suspended for the next semester (a decision that I am appealing, but if not I’ll probably take some community college classes at home).
It is very encouraging to hear that you can have early struggles as an undergrad and still go on to get a Ph.D., though. I keep telling myself that rationally, setbacks I face at the age of 19 as a sophomore in college do not have to affect me for the rest of my life, but I’m still kind of freaking out over the prospect of getting into grad school.
Sending you a lot of good vibes. A good handful of my friends have been in similar situations, and they were able to get things back together and return to school. (And some actually didn’t return to school and are happy/doing great things.) If your university has a counseling center, I would definitely recommend going. My school had regular therapy/counseling, but also academic counseling and support for students who were on academic probation or returned after dropping/failing out. So just know that it can all work out, and grad school can still happen!
I like what you have to say and I like that you have a lot to say.
(I’m replying to your comment below mine, but ID is being weird.)
I’m sorry about your fall semester, and I hope you have support this semester as you appeal and addressing those issues. I know that different schools have different levels of advising support, but I’d encourage you to reach out to a faculty or staff person who knows you to talk about a retroactive withdrawal for fall–it’s something I’ve helped students look into and can be a good way to reset a bad semester. If you haven’t already, you should be in touch with your Dean of Students. It’s their job to help navigate just these kinds of problems and to help set you up for success when you return. (And, I’d add, if your school isn’t helpful in these ways, it might be worth looking into another school, though I know transferring is a whole terrible thing that might seem overwhelming.)
But, yes, one bad semester–or even multiple bad semesters!–doesn’t have to be the template for your entire academic career. Not all of us are prepared to start college at 17 or 18 (I’m a big proponent now of gap years), but if you really do like learning in an academic setting, you can get yourself back to a good place.
My school is great as far as advising goes, and my academic advisor has been extremely supportive (as have all of my professors). I go to a small liberal arts college that places a strong emphasis on advising. As far as I’m aware, though, there’s no option for retroactive withdrawal. A grade could be retroactively changed for an individual class based on the recommendation of the instructor, but not withdrawn from entirely. There’s no mention of such an option in our academic handbook, and I feel fairly confident that if such an option was available, somebody would have mentioned it to me by now. I was encouraged to go on medical leave before the end of the semester in order to avoid the consequences of having all these failed classes on my transcript, which I chose not to do for a variety of reasons, but the impression I got was that if I did stick out the semester, I was stuck with the grades.
Honestly, though, I’m trying not to worry too much about my GPA or anything. My biggest concern right now is that I really, really, really do not want to be suspended for a semester. I really do love school, in spite of the factors that have gotten in the way of my academic success, and I would much rather get a fresh start by diving into a new semester with new classes and put last semester behind me, instead of feeling like I’m stuck at home and unable to move forward. And I am confident that, whether I return to school next week or in 7 months, there are support systems in place to help me succeed. I’ve already taken advantage of those support systems to some extent, although there’s only so much that can be done when I’m an English/Theatre major and I find myself entirely incapable of writing an essay. At some point, I still have to do the work. (I’m doing much better now, though, which is why I do feel that returning to school this semester is my best option for moving forward.)
Haha, I actually did ask my parents when I was a senior in high school if I could do a gap year. Their answer, obviously, was “no.” That said, I don’t regret starting college at 17, and if anything I feel like it gives me a little more room to maneuver going forward because I’m not already “behind” (which I don’t mean to imply judgement of people who don’t choose to go directly to college following high school, or who take time off for whatever reason. But what I mean is, if I have to take a semester off now, I’m glad I didn’t already take a whole year off, and I’m not convinced that having taken a gap year would have changed my mental health situation enough that I wouldn’t be facing the same struggles I am right now).
I just got an email from a student who hasn’t yet finished last semester’s requirements for me because of multiple family issues, so I agree with you 100% that the requirement should be the number without the value-laden language. Because the flip side of this is the student who claims they deserve a better grade because they “worked really hard.”
As another person who attends class and has a sub-2.5 GPA, I think a GPA requirement makes sense, but 2.5 is too high.
At my university, you’re put on probation if your GPA drops below 2.0. You’re restricted in the number of courses you can take, and you have to go to mandatory advising. If you can bring your GPA above 2.5, you’re off probation. If it stays below 2.0, you’re kicked out.
I was put on probation because I signed up for a computer science major that I wasn’t ready for. I learned a ton of valuable stuff that has benefited me in my professional life, but I did switch that major to a minor.
Under the “work hard” model, that would be considered a failure, and I would be kicked out for it.
So I’m not just taking issue with the rhetoric.
It’s also a fuck-you to the parents & working-by-day-learing-at-night students already enrolled, THIS ISN’T ANIMAL HOUSE, STOP THINKING IT’S ALWAYS ANIMAL HOUSE. The spirit is willing but the outside forces that include institutionalized racism/patriarchy ARE VERY STRONG.
That said, YAY!
i kind of understand the reasoning behind this, though. as someone who went to community college, a lot of my fellow students dropped out or wandered in and out of their studies. with this reasoning, the free education would be like a low-level merit-based scholarship, where the merit is that you’re at least committing to going to school if they’re going to pay for it.
I can see the concern. If it’s free, it’s a short step from there to obligating colleges to keep students even when they’re failing or refusing to do any of the work, as high schools are more or less required to do. In college, the stakes are higher, especially in majors that deal with actual people, and colleges do need the right to say, “You’re not meeting requirements, we don’t have more steps for you to take to stay here, and you need to give up your spot to someone else who can and will do this work.” College also confers certain benefits, like health insurance coverage for sub-26-year-olds, and can be a job benefit, and if a student is there and just taking up space, the college and/or the gov’t in this case needs to be able to say, no more.
I do agree that there’s a necessity for requiring a certain level of achievement because, as yeah_elle notes, it’s basically a kind of merit-based scholarship. I’m just objecting to the very Protestant-work-ethic language it’s framed with .
I know everybody recognizes this as cool, but as a student I feel I need to say this is the best thing. I got into a decent college on a good scholarship just because of a bs standardized test score, and everyone else I know collectively lost their shit over a) getting into a tolerable college and b) not paying through the nose. All the people I know in college are still losing their collective shit over paying for their degrees, and will be for decades afterward. Fuck yeah, Mr President.
I want to see the current model for higher education go down in fucking flames. It’s rotten to the core. I can’t see a way to salvage it as is and I work at a research university for godssake.
I enjoy how, after the midterms, Obama suddenly went, “no, you know what? Fuck you guys, I’m getting shit done. You’re all assholes, and you and I are fucking done professionally.” You could practically feel the revival of his “don’t give a fuck” energy.
Hahah I love the idea of him sitting around in the White House and suddenly just standing up and announcing “free college! let’s do it!”
“Free college! Immigration! Only the Supreme Court can stop me now!”
Or smoking doobies in the Rose Garden! The potential number of kick-ass ideas he could have while high in the Rose Garden is … just a wonderful number.
I see what you’re aiming for here, but pls be mindful of promoting the idea that the 1st black Pres has his best idea while high in the WH
I totally get what you’re saying, but I said nothing about race, and for me, this has nothing to do with race. I personally love brainstorming ideas while high, and he has also openly admitted to having used previously (as have a few of our previous [white] presidents). My intent was not at all to say that he had or would have his “best” idea while high, but this “fuck you guys, I’m getting shit done!” attitude that the original poster ascribed to him would, in my opinion, match well with a couple hits.
i know! I totally understand what you mean! You never brought up race. And many many white people smoke and do a range of things! Im just saying some jokes don’t apply equally and noting to be mindful of the wealth of context and associations with black man / drugs.
I wasn’t even thinking about that when I read Alli’s comment, but … I’m envisioning it now and . . . it’s actually kind of awesome.
She didn’t suggest they’d be his best ideas, though.
certainly we can nit-pick every way her comment was right w/o noting a dif perspective may be valid. we can do that too.
It’s like he watched the “free college” episode of The West Wing and was all, “Hey, guys! Guys! I got a idea!”
“Guys. You guys. I don’t have to get re-elected, and Congress isn’t doing shit. OMG free college!”
Someone should give him one of those Kate Beaton “ain’t give a damn” t-shirts.
http://www.topatoco.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&…
Yeah, I am pretty unconvinced by the arguments that it’s a bad idea. Their main problem is that it doesn’t address other costs of going to college like transportation and living expenses, which I get, but it’s still make it more accessible when people don’t have to worry about transportation and living expenses AND tuition, no? And the other criticism is that it only applies to students who didn’t get their tuition covered by other grants, which means it won’t get to the students who need it most– but I’m not convinced that that logic really follows. It’s not like the Starbucks ‘free college’ thing that was really more like ‘free shitty online degree from a for-profit university, kinda maybe’
I love counter-arguments to the thing that it’s not helpful ENOUGH. “This sprinkler system you’ve installed doesn’t include escape pods for people to get away fast enough!” “This plan to provide food for hungry people doesn’t also give them new clothes!” “Why are you bothering to help people pay tuition for college if you’re not ALSO paying for them to drive there? blaaaaargggh!”
“This is Socialism!” is back to meaning a positive thing and not some negative take-down. “But that’s not capitalism!” is their real concern. “Wait, if a system is in place that doesn’t result in a rich man getting richer, who or what’s next? My wealth hoarding scheme? This cannot stand.” I know that the actual logistics are different and more complicated in this case, but I’m just conveying a mindset.
Gah! No kidding. It’s as if reducing/eliminating tuition payments won’t free up some cash for folks to do things like – oh, I don’t know, get a bus pass or maybe even buy a junker car so they can get from the part-time job that pays the rent/expenses to college without needing six bus transfers.
This is fantastic. I’ve always thought that more people should start out at community colleges– I went to one for a while after failing out of a traditional college (lol long story) and then returned to a four-year college to finish my degree. I met some of the best instructors I ever had there. I so regret that I didn’t just start out at the CC, I think I would have been better prepared and come away with less debt. But I know a lot of people who don’t consider it or only consider it a backup plan.
yeah, community colleges get a bad rep, but they can be really life-changing for young adults who aren’t quite ready for a residential 4-year school or for older adults who are trying to change their careers. My mom just retired from a second career as an instructor at her local community college (after 30 years of teaching high school), and she has some really touching stories about her students.
Yeah, many of my instructors were also or had formerly been high school teachers. I was a high-achieving student academically so it never even crossed my mind that I might spend time in a community college. But it turns out that being 18 and on your own for the first time can be a disaster no matter how well you did on the SAT. I have no idea if you can sell the idea of staying in your hometown to kids who might otherwise be headed to four-year colleges (and who may have no idea that they aren’t prepared in that regard.) But I bet that two free years will help.
I think about eight of my former high school teachers started teaching at the local CC after they retired.
word, i will get up on a soap box for community colleges.
i was a Bad Attitude Teenager with Problems and nearly didn’t graduate high school. community college helped me turn my academic record around, join an honors program, transfer to the number one public university in the country, save money, and rediscover how much i loved learning. i know not all community colleges are as great as the one i was lucky to live nearby, and some people have crap experiences, but i can tell you that in the beginning i did not want to be there and was embarrassed by my prospects, and it turned out to be an undeniably life-changing and positive experience.
Yeah! So was I and I looooved my community college! I actually do continuing ed programs there still. I’m Canadian, and our system is pretty different, I think, but still – Community College! I was flunking out of high school and bored to death, and the start I got a cc carried me to a fully funded grad program eventually.
One of my sisters wanted to go to a private school, but didn’t want to pay for private school, so she specifically chose a community college with a high rate of students that transitioned to the private school. I sometimes wish I had done the same, but only because I wasn’t sure what I wanted to study, and so I picked the wrong school when it turned out what I was most interested in wasn’t a program at the local university I chose for convenience, but I didn’t figure that out until two years in, when I was already halfway through my “I guess it’s interesting and something I can do” major.
My mom and her sister both went to USC, but her sister went to a community college with a high rate of transfer first, and let’s just say she was not the one paying off credit card debt and student loans for years after. My mom’s choice was totally right for her, but it had its trade-offs.
(Also it’s just so them. My bleeding-heart mom who worked in journalism and education and was all, “LOOK AT THESE BRICK BUILDINGS, HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ANYTHING SO ROMANTIC, SO EAST COAST. LOOK AT THESE DORM ROOMS. I WILL MAKE THE BEST FRIENDS OF MY LIFE HERE, THEY WILL ALL BE NAMED KAREN BUT I WILL CALL THEM CUTE THINGS LIKE MUFFY” and her fiscal conservative, insurance exec sister who was like, “Well, my older sister will take me to USC football games either way, so all things considered I’d rather have football AND money.”)
I actually did get pretty much my entire BA for free (academic scholarship) and it was great. But what I also like is seeing the focus on technical/vocational/professional training. Not everyone needs a BA. A lot of companies require BAs for jobs that don’t really need a college degree to do, and I’d like to see that change. I loved college, and I am a strong proponent of liberal-arts education, but I also recognize that not everyone is naturally suited to academics and that there are other ways to prepare people for gainful employment.
I heard a report on NPR about a company that makes I think road-grading machines, and they’ve had 25 positions open for over 2 years. They can’t fill them because they’re machinist positions that require a lot of hands-on experience, and they keep getting applications from newly graduated mechanical engineers who have great academic credentials but have never touched a metal lathe (or the like) and can’t hand-design. Skilled trades are incredibly important!
Where I went to school there was a definite class distinction there. Only “white trash” went to trade school. It’s a shame, too, because all kinds of people are just happier working with their hands than working in a cubicle. Why else would my white collar dad work so hard to make enough money that he can build furniture as a hobby? In a just world, he’d have been a professional carpenter.
My objection is primarily this: I teach college, and I’ve taught at community colleges, and so far, there seems very little discussion about how community colleges are already severely underfunded and overburdened, and unless there are funds, they will need to hire a boatload more faculty to meet the demand. I saw one person on a news website say that she thought it was a great idea and she’d volunteer to teach, and I wanted to slap her silly. I have years of experience and graduate education, and I am worth every penny I’m paid and then some. If people are under the impression that it’s a job that can be done by enthusiastic retirees for free, this whole thing is going to collapse in a flaming heap of valuelessness.
This is my concern as well. I love the idea and absolutely support the principles behind it, but I’d like to know how it’s going to affect faculty salaries. As an adjunct, my pay comes out to about $10 per student per month. I really can’t afford to take a pay hit. I can’t live on what I make as it is. If we’re going to revamp the system to make education accessible, then we need to address other problems that are directly tied to it. Otherwise, adjunct/part-time faculty (who usually have no benefits or ability to unionize) are going to be vulnerable.
I’m an adjunct also, at a state 4-year college, and though we’re union members (and in this state, so are the CC faculty), I still worry that everything is going to be desperately oversubscribed for the number of faculty. That means either soaring class sizes (not a practical way to teach writing) or turning away a lot of would-be students (already happens in nursing programs for lack of qualified faculty). I’d really liked to have seen Obama address this as though colleges were also large and diverse workplaces, because they ARE.
I’m a Prof. at a 4-year college, and you have voiced all of the concerns I have. Unless the Fed has a plan to roughly triple the number of community college campuses (not a bad idea, btw), I don’t see this being feasible.
Details, details!! LOL!
There is huge pent-up demand in the US for basic college courses and vocational training. Hence the explosion in for-profit “colleges,” most of which prey on the desires of working class people to better their lives by getting either vocational training or basic college courses. This is the role that community colleges should (and do) play in the US. As the posters above me have said, in many places in the country, they are currently operating at full capacity or higher. I taught at a community college where one of the vocational programs had a three-year waiting list.
However, expanding community college enrollment to fit demand is not a question of just hiring more teachers. More students mean more classroom space, more demand on the library, (for study space and for course materials), more parking spaces (always a problem in higher ed), more computer lab space (heavily utilized by lower-income students), more student services like tutoring, and more office space for the instructors you’re hiring.
One of the virtues of community colleges is that the classes are small. As they often serve weaker students, this is a huge benefit to the learner and not something that I think should be tossed to the wayside.
For what it’s worth, before I got this job (at a small, religiously-affiliated university) I taught at a big state university, a highly selective, world famous, private university, a (rather good, but not the best) university in Germany, and at a community college in a medium sized metro area (1 million people). By far my best students were in the community college.
Is the plan to stock the colleges with free volunteers, though? Because otherwise, I’d think more students coming to community colleges with more money would just lead to better-compensated teachers.
I do hope the plan is to hire more and better-compensated teachers, but so far, the entire focus has been on making it free for students, and little to nothing seems to have been said about who will teach them and how colleges will deal with the logistical challenges of a huge influx of students. What if the actual side effect is that community college admissions becomes desperately competitive? Other schools that have had free tuition have been more competitive than Harvard. If this is to actually reach more people, there needs to be a serious conversation about faculty and campus space, now.
“What if the actual side effect is that community college admissions becomes desperately competitive?”
I don’t know how it works in other states, but in California, the “application” for community colleges is really just a registration form. If you get the form in before a certain date, you’re in, and then it’s just a matter of getting into classes that have room. This is a godsend for a lot of people. The idea of that changing into an actual application process where you’re accepted or rejected is very sad.
I’ve taken classes at community colleges before for career advancement, and they already have enough trouble fitting all the students into classes. In the past few years, many students have had to postpone finishing their programs because they just couldn’t get into the classes they needed. And that’s while the colleges still have fees. If they become free, getting a class will be a nightmare.
I agree that the idea of free college is lovely, but I’m waiting for the funding details before celebrating.
yes, this is the only issue i can think of.
but if they can find the funding for it somehow, i’m all for it. i always vote in favor of the ballot measures and bills that send funding towards my local community colleges. they need it and i’m willing to pay for it.
There are also BOATLOADS of unemployed MA/PhDs, however, at least in the humanities. It would have to be properly funded, which is probably wishful thinking, but opening many more jobs at community colleges only seems like a wonderful thing to me.
I think it would be fantastic. I would love that kind of work opportunity. I’m just concerned that it seems not to be part of the conversation so far, and I’d hate to get excited about a situation that just ends up screwing my career more than it already has been.
And an excellent punch in the eye to the GOP.
How about increasing the government grant threshold so students have more support at either community or 4-year colleges?
Agreed, agreed. Until I see a comprehensive plan for remunerating the professors involve in all this free education, these are all degrees from Pipe Dream College.
Not to mention, depending on the field, the glut in the Ph.D. market means that some CC instructors may be cobbling together multiple jobs to make rent as is it. Unless CCs are going to commit to hiring qualified folks into tenure-track faculty lines or permanent staff positions, the kind of expansion two free years would require will be profoundly difficult. (This is a problem of all schools, not just CCs – in general, the shift to adjuncts rather than permanent or tenure-track faculty needs to stop.)
That woman who says she’d volunteer to teach sounds like she thinks CCs are some kind of daycare.
Who is this “all”? No bachelor’s here (college not considered to be an option in my family, etc.) but here I am, a fan of your work and this site. And now I feel like a ding dong.
That was a shortsighted thing to say, wasn’t it? I feel so weird and alienated when people say things like “We all X”, and I have never Xed; Xing is not a part of my life. It’s like biting into a pit in your cherry pie.
So! I am glad you are here! I’m glad we enjoy the same things! I’m sorry you were hurt by thoughtless phrasing!
Also, I often read the one star reviews of Mallory’s book on amazon, and I aver that lots of people with degrees in literature do not understand her jokes, and are angry that the books she goofs about are considered to be common knowledge. A bachelor’s degree is no guarantee that someone understands the best jokes.
(The one star reviews are AMAZING, y’all; just a rollercoaster of offended people complaining that Mallory likes TOO MANY BOOKS.)
Please don’t feel like a ding dong. You are welcome here and I am glad you’re here.
Keep in mind, the origins of this site may explain the unfortunate, exclusionary assumption. The Toast was conceived by and for librarians. There isn’t even a bachelor’s degree available for library science. The field begins with a master’s degree. So it’s a natural mistake to assume college education.
Like so many people, I have a BA that seems useless. Almost every job I have held in the past 25 years has “required” the degree. However, only one of them (teaching high school) actually used skills I learned in college. Why don’t employers just say they want someone smart and literate? Asking for a college degree is lazy and elitist.
How about forgiving the loans for those of us who went to community college and can’t afford to pay them back? Or those people who don’t think they should have to pay back loans to a school who weren’t very sympathetic about her on-campus rape and wouldn’t let her withdraw from the classes she couldn’t go to because he was in them. Asking for a friend.
Personally, I think student loan forgiveness for people who’ve already graduated would have been a more just first step in this direction. But I’m biased.
Oh lord, yes. Even reducing part of the load would be much appreciated.
I had a 100% academic scholarship for standard 4 years’ tuition thanks to Florida Bright Futures (it is no longer 100%) and this would have been SO MUCH BETTER because the requirements for the scholarship were confusing and I was not capable of going to school full-time and succeeding. I thought I had to sign up for 12 credit hours (full time status) no matter what in order for the scholarship to pay out, even though I could only do 9, so I always dropped the 4th classes after add/drop period, so the scholarship THOUGHT I was enrolled… so I ended up having to pay for those out of pocket later on. And now I have massive student loans (though that’s partly because I attempted to go to online grad school and learned too late that I am not good at not being in a physical classroom).
NO ONE in advising or finance or anything told me that I could have just enrolled for the 9 hours in the first place, that 3/4 time was acceptable, which is pretty upsetting to me. They also didn’t really explain the differences in private vs. stafford loans in a way that I understood (since my staffords were unsubsidized, it sounded like the same thing to me – NOW I see that my stafford loans will be forgiven with 6 more years of non-profit work, while I’m still paying off the private loans).
Anyway, I say all this, because: a simpler system like what it sounds like Obama proposes would have saved SO MUCH GRIEF, and misunderstanding. Trying to navigate student loans and scholarships is really difficult, and teenagers aren’t typically equipped with the experience to figure it out, judging by how ALL my siblings and cousins and many young people I interact with now overreached/are overreaching with the student loans because the “future payments” part just doesn’t seem real, or sounds like it will be easy, or whatever. Maybe it will be easy! But what if it isn’t?
Regarding tuition-free college in the US: Slate published this article/video thingy in November. I have no idea if these figures are accurate (because Slate) but it’s worth chewing over.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/12/09/th…
As my personal motto that I would shout across the rooftops is “Fk Higher Ed”– this goes a long way to pulling me back.
No way Rs will support this, but Im 1000% into Obama II: No Fks Given
My community college did this! It was a dual credit program, so the standards were more stringent, but the advisor for the program realized that the way the District worded the rules meant that you could claim to be homeschooled, drop out of high school, and take as many community college classes as you wanted and graduate with an associate’s degree- for free! I went on to get no scholarships at a state university because fuck texas, and still graduated with less than 20k in debt. This is awesome and I want it for everyone.
Free college? AWESOME. On board 100%.
However, framing this (not you, specifically, Mallory Ortberg, but seemingly everyone) as part of an ever-increasing discourse in which those with less advantages lose out at every turn and yet are told they are being offered the same opportunities as everyone else and if they fail it’s a character flaw–this is the problem.
My experience as someone who made a difficult (but hardly unusual) transfer to a private four-year college as a sophomore plus (transferring credits can be nightmarish) has shown me this: the upper classes can continue to do things as they always have–only working during college if they need to, going to the same school four years, living on campus, not worrying about loans later, TAKING UNPAID INTERNSHIPS. The lower classes are forced to attend more and more school, but they have little to no support.
I’d like to see us work more towards figuring out how low-income people can attend a four-year university, gathering all of the continuity and advantages therein. This would be far more helpful than continuing to segregate poor people at community colleges and telling them their experience there is just the same as it would be had they been at a four-year university all four years.
I’m glad to hear somebody say this. I work at a four year school but have advised some transfers from CC and I don’t know if it’s worth the trade-off. I’ve drafted a letter to the president about this, but the whitehouse website isn’t working right now. I might have to mail it.
The differences are tiny but monumental. Accessible computer labs. Comprehensive services for students with disabilities. Tutoring centers. Access to graduate student teaching assistants. Laptop rental. Sometimes, free printing. Advisors for your specific major. Classes where there aren’t students sitting on the floor. Another administrative detail: classes at my community college were worth 3/4 of a class when I transferred, so I was demoted back to sophomore.
At my community college, the budget cuts were so bad that the counseling center was a whole-day affair. It opened at 9, but students would show up as early as 8 AM to put their names on the list so they could be seen four hours later for 10 minutes. I am not exaggerating. The financial aid line almost always wound around the whole lobby.
And while there are many excellent professors at the community college level, I really don’t think you could argue in most cases that the classes are comparable. Professors who can and will fight for an intellectually stimulating and challenging curriculum are few and far between because they lack institutional support.
I live in a European Wonderland where education is free on every level. There are fees for the material used at art schools and trade schools but that’s it. Don’t let your politicians fool you. Free college is possible. It doesn’t even have to impact the quality. Universities here don’t have any campus housing or sports centers or things like that, but there are libraries, labs, computers and everything else a school of higher education actually needs, and they’re good at teaching and doing research. And I pay my school literally zero. My student loans are only for covering cost of living, because I can’t work and go to school at the same time. Some people can, though.
This means that the class differences between who gets to go to college and who doesn’t are smaller. Here, the big problem is that kids from lower socioeconomic background drop out of high school at an alarming rate (and you need a complete 3 year secondary school diploma for literally every type of education as an adult, including trades). But if you do get through high school, your path is clear. It’s great for social mobility.
It’s also incredibly short-sighted to demonize technical/mechanical work. Because damn, I’m not snaking my own bathtub drain. And if you spend all of your time degrading and belittling the idea of going into, say, carpentry, then yeah, you’re going to have trouble finding a skilled, reputable carpenter to build your deck. Respect your local tradespeople and technicians, folks.
The many years, off and on, that my Beloved and his BS, MS, and PhD have been unemployed made me envy households in which a tradesman paid the rent. I have never know a licensed plumber to be out of work.
And it drives me nuts when people look down on both trade schools and a liberal arts education. So you’re making fun of my English degree because it’s not practical in today’s labor market, but you’re shitting on somebody who’s learning incredibly useful skills? Dickface.
And even if this doesn’t enable absolutely everybody to go to college, it’ll certainly enable MORE people to go to college than can currently afford it.
ETA: reply to elitist ; about transportation and such as.
Lame Duck Obama can get it. Best Obama since Candidate Obama ’08.
This reminds me of Chretien’s final days, when he was like FUCK YOU ALL I’M MAKING SCHOLARSHIPS AND STUFF.
Obama’s stuff is better, but yeah, lame ducks FTW.