Fantasy novels are often derided as “escapist,” with some claiming they are only read by people wishing to briefly turn away from the unpleasantries and horrors of our world and frolic in magical lands full of elves and talking trees. But most secondary worlds in fantasy novels are actually blighted, barbaric hellscapes no sane person should ever want to set foot in. For all of Hogwarts’ silly spells and whimsical names, it’s still a dreary castle with legal slavery and Wizard Nazis, and without electricity or basic child safety regulations. Narnia seems magical and wondrous until you realize its version of Jesus, in our world a kindly carpenter, is an apex predator with six-inch claws and razor-sharp teeth.
Few secondary worlds — even Westeros, with its eternal winters and horrifying weddings — are as strange and horrifying as J.R.R. Tolkien’s Middle-earth. The Shire is bucolic and lovely, but it’s also populated by xenophobic yokels and bordered by a forest of people-eating trees and a haunted graveyard. Rivendell and Lothlórien promise gardens of earthly delights, but if you’re an elf you’re stuck with your current job until The World Is Changed. You can’t have social mobility when you and everyone above you is immortal! Somebody is emptying Galadriel and Celeborn’s chamberpot every day and they have been emptying it every day for millennia (can you even imagine what lembas must smell like on the way out?). One elf’s Valinor is another elf’s Angband, as they say.
Besides, we mortal Big People wouldn’t even be allowed in the Shire or elf-lands. The best we could do? Dale and Laketown, cities with an unfortunate history of dragon attacks; the Vales of Anduin, inhabited by a clan of easily angered were-bears; Bree, an isolated village “a day’s march from foes that would freeze [your] heart”; Rohan, a windswept warrior country that must absolutely reek of wet horse; or Gondor. Yes, Gondor is spectacular-sounding enough that a man recently tried to raise billions of dollars to create a life-sized model of its capital, Minas Tirith. But his vision leaves out an important detail: Minas Tirith would be a terrifying place to live. After all, it’s within spitting distance of Mordor, a nightmare kingdom ruled by a fallen angel and swarming with orcs, trolls, and an enormous spider that eats light and vomits despair. Nobody this side of your local Hot Topic wants to spend billions recreating that.
Even after the threat of Mordor is ended, Gondor would be an embarrassingly backwards place to live. Despite claiming to be the most advanced of Mannish countries, Gondor still crowned a king whose royal legitimacy makes the Hanoverian Succession look entirely reasonable. Aragorn, son of Arathorn may have been a great leader and high fantasy’s hottest octogenarian, but his claim to the throne of Gondor was bullshit.
Aragorn traced his lineage back three millennia to Isildur, who along with his father Elendil and brother Anárion, founded the kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor after escaping the downfall of Númenor. After they died, rule of Gondor passed to Anárion’s son Meneldil, and rule of Arnor went to Isildur’s son Valandil. Arnor eventually fell into civil war before it was wiped out by the Lord of the Ringwraiths, then going by the impossibly badass name of “Witch-king of Angmar.” Aragorn’s family then gave up their royal title, went into the shadows, and became the Rangers. The descendents of Anárion ruled Gondor until Eärnur, the last king, was captured and tortured to death by the aforementioned Witch-king (an important prophecy from the Third Age: If you’re a man, you should not fuck with a terrifying wraith who rides a pterodactyl and calls himself the “Witch-king.” If you’re a woman, stab him in the face).
Aragorn’s claim to Gondor’s throne rests entirely on his being descended — after 3,000 years — from Valandil and Isildur, who were kings of Arnor. The closest real-world parallel to this would be an Italian man claiming descent from Romulus showing up in Ankara and claiming to be King of Turkey, because Romulus was supposedly descended from Prince Aeneas of Troy. Imagine if you found out your ancestor, thirty-seven generations prior, was the brother of an Egyptian pharaoh. Do you know what that would make you, in terms of Egyptian political succession? NOTHING. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
Gondor’s own laws and rulers even recognized how ridiculous Aragorn’s claim was. Arvedui, the last king of Arnor before he drowned in a shipwreck, once claimed the throne of Gondor, but the Council of Gondor rightly rejected him, saying the royal line of Gondor was descended from Anárion, not Isildur. Aragorn, like a many an illegitimate dictator before him, was only able to seize power due to the breakdown of law and society during the great crisis of the War of the Ring. Even then, with the doom of Gondor looming, Denethor the Steward of Gondor told Gandalf he wouldn’t bow to Aragorn, “last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.” (Denethor may have been Middle-earth’s Worst Dad Ever, but he had a point there: Aragorn came from royal stock, but the only thing his family had administered for a thousand years was a forlorn wilderness full of ruins, wolves, and trolls that talked like Victorian gutter urchins.)
After the War of the Ring and Denethor’s death, Gondor did embrace Aragorn as its new king, partially because he’d arrived at the head of an army of the Dead. But while “commands a terrifying ghost army” is a fantastic qualification for fronting a Norwegian black metal band or a community Halloween parade, it’s less than ideal for ruling a vast and diverse country of the living.
Even worse, Aragorn’s supposed suitability to rule is directly tied to his pure Númenorean blood. Despite how much the Gondorrim valorized Númenor as the high tide (pun intended) of Mannish civilization, it was an island of stunted man-babies at best and bloodthirsty, devil-worshipping imperialists at worst. Númenor sank beneath the sea after its people began worshipping Morgoth, the first and greatest Dark Lord, and tried to invade the Blessed Realm of Valinor to gain immortality. But even during its more faithful, peaceful times, Númenor was less an advanced civilization and more a Man Cave for quasi-immortals. Erendis, Queen of Númenor during its Golden Age, observed to her daughter that the centuries long life-spans of Númenorean men caused them to, “Dally in the world, children in mind, until age finds them — and then many only forsake play out of doors for play in their houses. They turn their play into great matters and great matters into play … soon they will go back to their great play, manslaying and war. If we love Númenor also, let us enjoy it before they ruin it.”
Given that the Númenoreans ruined their civilization to the point that it was personally destroyed by God Himself, the Gondorrim probably shouldn’t have been so quick to crown a long-lived, pure-blooded Númenorean like Aragorn. They’d probably have been better off elevating Pippin Took to the throne. Hobbits at least dally with the good things in life: hearty food, heady ales, fireworks, and weed.
So while our own mundane earth may lack Elven-magic and Ent-draughts, at least our royal succession policies aren’t completely batshit, and our man-children dallying at manslaying don’t live for centuries. Let us enjoy it before they ruin it.
YES. YESSS. #GONDORNEEDSNOKING
All hail Faramir son of Denethor, Steward of Gondor, and his heroic wife Eowyn! Seriously, personally slaying the Witch-King of Angmar has to be up there with commanding an army of the dead.
Right? If whats his ass gets to rule Laketown for basically using a cheat code to kill Smaug, you’d think Eowyn would get to be empress of reality for outsmarting a thousand year old prophecy and bashing the Witch-King of Angmar’s face off with a mace. Instead she gets rewarded with Faramir, a rich, hot but otherwise generally useless idiot.
Hey now, Faramir’s a very useful and compassionate dude (who is for some reason hated by Peter Jackson). My issue is that Eowyn killed one of the most powerful evil forces in Middle-Earth, got ultra-PTSD, and then decided that being a badass demonslayer wasn’t very feminine, so she was going to give up all of that nonsense.
I’ve been trying to craft a reply that’s something more substantial than “if he’s so smart why did he get knocked into a coma by an arrow?” but that isn’t really fair to anyone.
That arrow was poisoned with both evil and literal poison, though! And he only got shot because he was hardcore enough to stay with his men and keep fighting the unbeatable (by a man) demon king!
I was being extremely ungenerous. He also resisted the temptation to swipe the ring from Frodo so he was, all things considered, of very sound character. I just wish he’d have realized Denethor had cracked his nut a bit earlier and figured out a way to preserve the Gondorian military before it got routed.
Well, he was going through the trauma of losing his brother, trying to prove himself to a father who never really loved him, all while being told that his father wished that he’d died instead of his brother. Faramir has a really shitty emotional mess to deal with.
This right here is the biggest thing. If LotR can be said to have a central pivotal moment of moral importance, Faramir’s refusal of the temptation of the ring is on the short list.
[agreeing with you re: Eowyn]
RIGHT THANK YOU
“OH HER HEART CHANGED, OR AT LAST SUDDENLY SHE UNDERSTOOD IT”
NO SHE UNDERSTOOD IT FINE BEFORE
IT WAS SAYING “HEY EOWYN I’M YOUR HEART, ‘SUP, GRAB THAT SWORD AND LET’S GO FUCK UP SOME ORCS”
HEY EOWYN, YOUR FATHER FIGURE IS DESCENDING INTO DESPAIR FUELED BY HIS MALICIOUS ADVISOR
HEY EOWYN, LOOK HOW NOBODY ELSE IS TAKING THIS SERIOUSLY AT ALL
HEY EOWYN, YOU NEED TO GO AND SAVE THE WORLD AND PROTECT YOUR KING
And then will you look at that, she did. And I’m all for people changing life paths, particularly in the wake of trauma, but when it’s written as “woman realizes that all of her heroism was her way of dealing with depression and misery, she’s all better now because she’s in love, devotes her life to properly womanly pursuits instead,” I have to take a moment to breathe deeply.
Is that at all tempered by Aragorn, Sam, Frodo, etc. longing to forsake the life of fighting and violence and go back to being peaceful and not having to do the whole “hero” thing any more? I can’t remember the book well enough to recall if Eowyn’s decision to give up fighting is specifically presented as a result of her being feminine. (This is not to say that it isn’t gendered! I just don’t remember Tolkein explicitly tying it to her gender. Even if he didn’t mean to convey that message, it is still maddening.)
You know what? I was too moderate and hedged my own beliefs with this comment. I 100% agree with thatjillgirl and saffiedarling below, and I think it’s a good thing that Eowyn, like the men, realizes the folly and despair of battle and the value of living a life full of healing, care, and growing things. Because we have too many dang stories where the ability to swing a sword is the marker of a person’s worth, and we have too many stories where the authors dare to say, “Yes, we are all about the women,” when the only women who matter are the women who swing the swords, and women (and men) who actually work to perpetuate life, instead of taking others’ lives, never appear except as names and faces in the background.
(I STILL genuinely don’t remember if Eowyn’s decision is presented as explicitly feminine. But I was regretting not standing up for my Book Opinions, which are of course the Most Important Opinions.)
My mom always told me that Eowyn was written in because Tolkien’s daughter got old enough to be like “Hey, dad, where are the ladies?” which means the fact that her “happy ending” is giving up all her own power to be a happy wife is… well, it’s a whole lot of things is what it is.
I pretty much blanked that whole section from my memory as a child, and I was genuinely surprised by it when I re-read LotR as an adult. Ugh.
Well in fairness, it wasn’t so much that she gave up being a badass demonslayer (though that WAS the result) as it was that she gave up her death wish. She was raised to think that death in battle was the only way to win glory and live a fulfilling, worthwhile life. Faramir taught her that even if one didn’t die in battle or even seek out battle, you could still live a Good Life.
I mean, I feel that this is a very lovely reading of her ending, and I will adopt it as my own personal view, but I don’t think I’m willing to credit Tolkien with it.
This is true, and an excellent realization, but Tolkien didn’t write the male characters as having the same reaction, falling in love and realizing that their dreams of glory and military splendor are unhealthy.
Except when they realized it even before falling in love: “I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory.”
Ugh, favourite section of the book.
THISSSSS
I may have used this is exact line in multiple… robust discussions of the feminist credentials of Eowyn. I am actually really really protective of this argument. While I love me a badass warrior chick, I feel like it’s really important to say ‘yes, women can be great at the traditionally male stuff, but you know, traditionally feminine stuff is Important and Valuable and Laudable too, and while stabbing a Witch-King in the face is awesomely badass, being good at poking people with sharp sticks is not the only way to live a valuable life, ROHAN.’
Faramir doesn’t love the shiny sharp stick for it’s sharp stickness; he only loves that which it defends. And that which it defends is a city full of people – men, women, young, old, healers, artists, politicians, teachers, writers, farmers etc. etc. etc. Without them to defend, what glory or purpose could battle ever have?
I’m going to stop now, because otherwise this will turn into a total essay about the uncritical elevation of the masculine in both pop culture and real life, and I’m already late for work.
I will read (and write, probably) so many thousands of words on the uncritical elevation of the masculine in pop culture and real life. I really love your take on this subject as it applies to LOTR and Eowyn.
Yes to this. Eowyn’s problem isn’t just a feminine one; it’s how to live when there isn’t a war, once the shadow has passed. For someone from a warrior culture to say “I have more to offer than killing things” is so cool, and I will stand by it forever! Plus she’s totally administering Ithilien with Faramir, whom I bet is really into companionate marriage.
Coming back to say how much I appreciate this comment, and similar ones here. For a long time I’ve felt like the only person espousing it. A death wish is not healthy! Even when your culture supports it.
(Could go on but really should put into essay form as I’ve been meaning to for years now…)
What Peter Jackson did to Faramir was UNFORGIVABLE. Don’t you take that perfect man (second only to Aragorn) and make him tempted to take the ring. He’s the opposite of his brother, dammit.
Head canon decided on right now: Eowyn still slays some demons whilst helping Faramir rehabilitate Ithilien.
Or some giant spiders? Don’t tell me Shelob didn’t have any offspring stashed in the mountains who might be an everyday danger to human colonists of Ithilien.
I will always wonder how a united Gondor and Rohan under Faramir and Eowyn would have turned out. With the exception of Denethor, stewardship seems like a much healthier approach to governance than kingship.
Aragorn was a damn fool not to marry Eowyn, as much as I love Faramir/Eowyn. Instead of marrying into powerful HORSE LORDS across the way let me consolidate power with the weirdos who are all leaving the continent.
IIRC Tolkien was totally considering going there, but later decided that Aragorn/Arwen as an echo of Beren/Luthien was more important. But he didn’t edit out “And THAT was the first time that Aragorn saw Eowyn of Rohan!!” like that was a Moment.
Is that… is that a gif of Denethor jumping to death!?!
It is, and it is beautiful.
That’s very metal.
I want to take a moment to draw everyone’s attention to the picture of the orc real estate agent that graces the “for sale” sign
It is truly an illustration that keeps on giving.
For all of Hogwarts’ silly spells and whimsical names, it’s still a dreary castle with legal slavery and Wizard Nazis, and without electricity or basic child safety regulations.
AKA literally all I talk about on Twitter these days AKA don’t follow me if you don’t want an in-depth discussion about the psychological ramifications of fighting Wizard Hitler at age 14.
Sounds great, is your username the same there? Let’s discuss this endlessly.
It issss I’m listening to OotP now and I have sooooo many thoughts on Harry’s PTSD
the books are pretty terrible on race and several other things, but yeah, the biggest problem = the manipulative adults using teenagers like chess pieces against a fascist who can literally fly
Oh God yes, it does not handle a lot of things well. I’ve just been picking up a lot of threads about the broken systems and the way the characters (especially Harry) process trauma on this read-through.
I always thought it was intended to be a criticism of the British class structure, but that it just flubbed the landing pretty hard.
As foreshadowed in the second book, when Ron became a literal chess piece in the game his teachers had set up.
First book! First book!
That was the first book.
I just recently listened to it again, and what really struck me: while I don’t blame Harry for jumping to the conclusion that Voldemort was in danger of seizing the Sorceror’s Stone (McGonagall should have listened to him and put his fears to rest!), I did realize that Quirrell would have had zero chance of getting the Stone if Harry hadn’t gone through the trap door to find him! Because, as Dumbledore said at the end, “only those who wished to find the stone but not use it” could retrieve it from the Mirror. So yeah, Quirrell would have been stuck there forever until Dumbledore came back to squash him.
Right, yes, I mixed up my “teenagers get lost in an underground death trap in order to defeat Wizard Hitler” plotlines.
Also, I slept in and was drinking my morning coffee while commenting. Bad idea.
Honestly a huge part of the problem in many of the books is Harry trying to save the world because he’s SO SURE HE’S RIGHT when he should really leave well enough alone. He is 100% responsible for Sirius’ death, for instance. He also shares the blame for Cedric’s death a little bit. I’m not saying I would have made better decisions as a teen but he definitely has a tendency to make things worse.
Nope. He made decisions based on the information he had at the time and — crucially — what his life experiences had taught him to expect. Those actions may have precipitated tragic ends (and other times genuinely saved lives, like Ginny Weasley’s in the second book), but the blame for those deaths do NOT fall on Harry’s head, not even 1%.
Bellatrix Lestrange is 100% responsible for Sirius’ death. Peter Pettigrew is 100% responsible for Cedric’s. Harry is not responsible for what happened when he was manipulated by malevolent forces, whether that be fake visions or a secret Portkey. The end.
Very fair. It probably says more about me than anyone else that I blame Harry, honestly!
To your credit, everyone in the books, over and over, seems to like to blame Harry whenever possible, too.
idk, I think it balances out by the slathering praise he receives when he does fuck up (like his Crucio in DH being described as ‘gallant’.) The whole series is kind of a narcissist’s day dream, really, it’s basically ‘Everyone alternately hates or adores me passionately, the whole world really does centre around me!’
Also in book 5 (Order of the P) is the point at which Harry is the most irrational, emotional & rage filled, because it is also the time V’s soul is growing in strength. At the end of the book when V tried to possess him and fails does the soul retreat a little (over the next 2 books V uses Occulemency) – this seems to have been confirmed some where on Potterwiki.
I usually feel mild shame at being 30+ still discussing HP but this thread comforts me.
He’s not responsible for Cedric’s death at all. He had no possible way of knowing that the Cup was one-way ticket to Voldy.
Sirius, now, is all on him.
One thing I loved about Carry On is that Rainbow Rowell – who clearly loves Harry Potter and knows it inside out – uses it to deftly criticize some aspects of the book. So in Carry On, the headmaster who uses children that way turns out to be an initially well-meaning but ultimately utterly misguided fanatic who caused more problems than he solved.
(also, the Harry Potter stand-in’s best friend is a half-Indian girl. Who happens to have a lesbian roommate. And completing the trio is another girl.)
Thank you for the recommendation, putting it on my list!
*follows you also* (tekkah there), because this sounds like exactly the kinds of conversations I love having with people.
I am 100% here for talking about how terrible the wizarding world is*, I will follow you. (my twitter is the same as here)
*It is an authoritarian hellscape if you ask me
One of my friends wanted to do a HP universe RP and all I wanted to do was disguise healing potions as pharmaceuticals to save the lives of all those poor muggles who can’t regrow their own bones and I was banned from the game.
Also here for your discussion of HP!!! (Following you as ibelieveinher, just FYI!)
I just want to say i love all your rose/ten usernames
The one sentence in this article that threw shade at HP was too much for me, as the HP series is basically my lord and savior. So, no offense, but I’ll be avoiding your twitter like the plague. Looks like I’m in the minority though.
Oh no! Please, don’t follow if you don’t want to, but know that I love the series more than pretty much anything on Earth. I actually think JKR did a fascinating my good job laying down Harry’s experiences as a trauma survivor, and I just really like to explore how much depth there is in the books. But I do engage with people about some of the more problematic parts of the universe, so avoiding my feed is probably a good idea!
I love studying Harry’s trauma through the books (visible from the very first book, by the way! That moment when his eyes glitter and he says “Well that’s it then, isn’t it?” Because he has zero trust in adults to protect him!) and I love thinking about how he functions as an adult, oh man.
I’m with you. I mean, I can stand to read criticism — and have done so — and I understand the validity of many points, but at the end of the day, that series is still foremost among my passions and obsessions and basically the fictional love of my life. I will always find them incredibly worthwhile to return to and re-read. I will be re-reading them (or playing Jim Dale’s reading) as an old lady stuck in a wheelchair, should I live so long.
Also, the last book was published on my birthday, which was the greatest present I could ever receive.
Also-also, they formed the doorway for my entering fandom and doing a ton of writing and also meeting my closest friends through the hardest years of my life, through which I may not have survived otherwise, so yeah, after a certain point of criticism I’m just like NOPE, BACK OFF.
ETA: Short version, I will read your criticism until I get the impression that you’re implying (or outright saying) these books are TRASH, in which case you are trash to me.
Yes, that last line sums it up nicely! I love reading analysis that looks at the wizarding world (either for humorous effect or for the sake of constructing additional nuanced stories or interesting fleshed-out reading), and I acknowledge that the books have some problems. But the second I get to a critique that’s like, “And J. K. Rowling doesn’t ever explain the origins of the wizarding world’s currency system within the books, and thus the books are trash,” OR a critique that’s like, “And honestly, these books shouldn’t be so popular, why do people like them, I will only ask this rhetorically and not actually examine why books I personally dislike might have touched hundreds of millions of hearts,” I’m a white-hot ball of rage.
Indeed! Or criticism that expects Ron Weasley to act like a mature adult instead of a teenage boy going through puberty, come on.
I’m dropping in late to say that I find it kinda difficult to engage with the online HP fandom because of the rabid Ron hate that crops up in like ANY discussion.
I mean I related to Ron SO HARD as a teenager and many people act like this means either a) I am an awful person now and deserve no happiness, or b) I am lying because it is impossible to be a female and identify with Ron
No, i LOVE HP, that’s why I am willing to discuss it approximately forever.
I don’t think the two things are mutually exclusive. I can discuss it forever, but I (personally) have a very small tolerance for listening to criticism of it. For me, listening to people criticize it is the equivalent of someone recovering from depression with the help of therapy and antidepressants listening to a Scientologist rant about how terrible therapy and antidepressants are.
I love that analogy. Fictional worlds can have an enormous weight with us on a psychological level, even years after first encountering them, and people should not judge (not that anyone here is, but it happens sometimes).
I don’t think people should judge the effect of fiction on others; but not everyone will have that experience, so it seems like if people don’t want to read criticism of their faves, the best thing to do would be…not to read it, rather than assume other people are trash or demanding that your faves are somehow exempt from criticism.
I completely agree with this. I love criticizing my favorite shows, books, etc. The more i like a thing the more I want to discuss it and pick apart all its flaws.
But Harry Potter is the exception, it’s just too much. I love talking about the books, the universe, etc. but I seriously can’t read any criticism about it. I don’t know, it’s just too personal.
Already following you as @annecara, and loving basically everything you write.
It’s been so long since I was really in the Harry Potter fandom, but I still think about how messed up Azkaban is on like a weekly basis.
If you enjoy fanfic at all you might want to check out Vera Rozalsky’s stuff on ff.net, specifically Amends, or Truth and Reconciliation. It’s a Hermione-centric post-Deathly Hallows fic about the post-war. There’s some kinky sex stuff later on which I could take or leave but the (canon-compliant) detailed exploration of the sociopolitical baggage of the HP wizarding world is sooo good.
“Unexploded ordinance” as Hermione euphemistically refers to it, including the nasty Umbrage faction in the ministry, all those werewolves running around, the kids at Hogwarts with PTSD and a thirst for bloody revenge, a muggle government that’s less than thrilled to be slowly learning about the little terrorist insurgency that was happening under their nose, the stark horror of Azkaban and the dementors, and more! I could go on but I will stop now. (One note of caution: Ron gets handled well imo but the fic is distinctly unforgiving about Molly, so if that’s a dealbreaker beware.)
I’ve read the first chapter and I just KNOW this is going to be brilliant.
And Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality! While extremely long and deeply flawed, it explores in depth a lot of the implications of that world. http://hpmor.com/
Really? The early chapters seem like he hadn’t actually read the books, or if he had not especially carefully (there were a few “take that”s I seem to recall that suggested he hadn’t understood what actually happened in the books), and then most of it is really about promoting the cultish Less Wrong and recruiting more people into his fundraising drive so that he can prevent the robot apocalypse.
I don’t remember many explorations of the implications of the actual Wizarding World from the books, but there were a lot of explorations of his version of them, designed to illustrate his ideas about how people work.
Also, ever since the discussion in which someone suggested he was dismissive of working class characters, and he replied that working class characters were less interesting because they weren’t interested in being smart and rational like him, I lost any enjoyment of the series beyond the frightening psychological implications given what he has said about himself and his personal importance in avoiding the robot apocalypse, and about Harry being a version of himself when he was younger.
I think about Harry Potter all the time and have really serious issues with the idea that there is a group of people with magic powers who have, at best, a fifth grade education.
I think Rowling has said in interviews that most Wizards homeschool their kids. But think about the disparity in education between someone like Draco whose parents can afford to have him privately tutored vs. Ron Weasley who was probably lucky to have learned the alphabet from his mother when she had a spare moment free from dealing with the Demon Twins, much less algebra or geography or how to write an essay. I despair when I think of all the godawful essays that must get written at Hogwarts.
Yes! Oh gods, yes. Even arts schools in the Muggle world spend some portion of the academic day on “mundane” subject like lit, math, etc., instead of just focusing on music, dance, drama, visual art, etc.
I always wondered about that too! Like….none of these people (or at least very, very few) can do geometry. Or speak a foreign language. Most of them probably have a very hazy understanding of the history of their own nation. I mean, I know they take History of Magic, but it seems they almost completely ignore muggle history, which is kind of a big chunk of history. It’s just such an arrogant, isolating cultural mindset. Like, “We have magic. We don’t need to know how to DO things.” Except at this point the muggles have somewhat surpassed them in terms of what technology can do versus what magic has accomplished. Basically I have some Real Concerns. Or at least some mind boggles.
To be fair, that’s kind of how the compulsory history curriculum works in the muggle world in England too (not sure about the other countries in the UK.) I did two years of history, during which we did English history from about the late 13th century to sbout the 16th century. Today a survey has been released showing thwt over 40% of the British public think colonialism is something to be proud of.
Pretty sure we could swap out a few of the nouns in that paragraph and be describing muggle education in most countries, though. Unless places besides my own United States are better about things like not leaving whole continents out of history classes.
Ugh. GOD. They have Muggle History Month – isn’t that ENOUGH? Anyway, why isn’t there a Wizarding History Month? That’s what *I* want to know.
(Too much?)
That is the one thing that has always bothered me from the books (and I know it is ridiculous). But, are we really supposed to believe that Ginny Weasley went on to become a sports reporter based on her education. I mean, sure there might have been some basic essay writing correcting, but I doubt professors had time to critique all their student’s essays for content as well as spelling, grammar, etc. Plus, journalism would be a whole different style than a Potions essay.
And, it seems the main qualification for being a teacher is “I guess I have some proficiency in the subject and probably won’t kill any students”. What about wizard doctors, do they just show up one day and are told “follow this other doctor around for a few days; I’m sure you’ll figure it out”? I don’t expect something in depth, but you’d think if there were wizarding universities, something would have been mentioned about it, even just Hermione casually mentioning she was thinking about applying to one.
There are all sorts of things that could be critiqued in Harry Potter, and this is the one I get the most worked up over….
When they go to St. Mungos in the 5th book you do see mention of trainee healers so I think you’re not far off the mark. I’ve always conceptualized post-Hogwarts education as a guild structure, you have to apprentice in the thing you want to do. Seems in keeping with the medieval feeling of a lot of the universe. Tonks also alludes to some standardized tests Aurors have to pass. So Ginny joins the newspaper guild perhaps? Seems consistent with Percy joining the ministry as someone who handles constituent mail.
Teacher education is a puzzle since we don’t see any trainee/apprentice teachers. That’s the biggest argument for a Wizarding Oxbridge, imho.
Especially when Rowling seemed to try to reboot around OotP with some more female characters with…well, jobs (you can trace the throughline from ‘Frank and Alice Longbottom, Aurors’ from GoF’s ‘An Auror and his wife’ trial scene) and iirc, has mentioned how in her vision, the WW has gender equality; which would seem to massively clash with most wizards homeschooling. I mean, even with one child, that’s a flat 11 years out of the workplace. God knows how single parents would manage.
Following! (Iori)
Yesss HP twitter forever. (@Liz_the_lemur)
The more I watch Harry Potter (every time it’s on ABC Family so…a lot) the angrier I get. What the hell was wrong with all those adults?!?! Also, ALSO, can we talk about how Dumbledore (I hate to say this) was actually a horrible manipulative person with no backbone??? Harry was a child! A CHILD! Anyway, whew I needed to get that off my chest.
I have found that if you are meeting new people and the conversation flags, starting a discussion of Worldbuilding in Harry Potter and its Disturbing Inplications will work brilliantly. (Note: most of the eople I interact with are mid-/late-twenties nerds.) My particular issue is the way in which Muggleborns are alienated from their background and the frankly horrifying relationship between the magical and non-magical worlds, but I have also enjoyed conversation about how wizarding banking even works (in the real world, giving the banks your money doesn’t mean they keep those exact coins in a vault – they use the additional resources you’ve given them to invest and generate income, but promise to give you back up to the amount you deposited when you want it. Gringotts just seems to store people’s gold for them. How is it making a profit?).
OMG I love conversations about how just sheerly BIZARRE and messed up the Muggleborn “assimilation” is. My fanfic-I-never-finished was all about that. I mean, I already have a tendency to wander off and sympathize with the “wrong” characters in books sometimes. . .
Does anyone feel like debating if Dumbledore’s portrait might possibly be a horcrux of sorts?
In the end, HP is still by far one of the more appealing fantasy worlds, for despite the dreary castle, legal slavery, and wizard nazis, it’s got one thing that’s missing all too often:
Modern plumbing.
This is the sort of quality content I’m here for.
Ok, but since Isildur is King David, Aragorn’s coronation is required to usher in the Messianic Age and bring Middle Earth 1,000 years of peace. Or something.
:sings:
The King of Glory comes the Nation rejoices
Open the gates before Him lift up your voices
*does liturgical dance*
*brews athelas tea*
Stephen Colbert’s liturgical dance:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oASYa-Wkroc
That genuinely improved my day, thank you.
so great
This is amazing and I love it. Can we get one on how the entwives were right to leave or on orc apologism next?
Also, minor quibble, but I thought it was heavily implied that Shelob was a descendant of Ungoliant and not Ungoliant herself? Like Ungoliant was supposed to have eventually eaten herself, and was long gone by the time The Lord of the Rings occurs. So just a *regular* terrifying giant spider, not a light-devouring, despair-vomiting one.
feel like devouring light and vomiting despair might be dominant traits in the Ungoliant family line
I’m going to need to see a Punnett square for this.
Unless there were some other male terrifying giant spiders to mate with, I think we are going to have to assume a long line of parthenogenesis.
She mated with her own offspring, then devoured them, which is part of why the line of Ungoliant has dwindled from its former glory.
Tolkien clearly had no clue about spider genetics because that just doesn’t work. They don’t have haplodiploid sex determination, so if Ungoliant didn’t have a male to mate with, the best she could do offspring-wise would be clonal females.
This is my favorite comment ever.
Yes, but that isn’t as horrifying as spider incest and infanticide, so we have to make allowances for narrative license.
Love the spider-genetics realism, but Ungoliant is actually a Maia who descended into the visible world much like the Valar, and like the Valar were able to clothe or assay themselves in physical manifestations as seemed appealing to them. My guess is that, like Melkor who became visible only in forms of dread after his fall, Ungoliant simply took on the appearance and form of a giant spider and was trapped in it due to her inherent darkness rather than actually being a spider and sharing their genetic traits.
Also, this conversation is my favourite thing that ever happened and reason number a billion why I love the Toast.
Ungoliant was a fallen angel too. The spider shape was just her physical vessel.
spiders don’t sting either.
I always assumed that she mated with Morgoth cause my brain wants to make me sad
D: D: D: D:
When I think about it, I am fairly certain that my weird linking of them as a couple is purely the result of the Blind Guardian song “Into the Storm” as opposed to anything from the Silmarillion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bDVPLDppvE
You are my new favorite person. Seeing Hansi Kursch dressed as Elvis singing this song has been pretty much the highlight of my life thus far.
Wouldn’t mating with therur own offspring eventually lead to spiders who had ALL Ungoliant’s qualities?
I had to take a moment after reading this comment, it was seriously that great. I love this website SO MUCH.
Shelob isn’t as primally terrifying as her mother, but it’s heavily implied when Frodo and Sam are in her layer tha she inherited something of her mother’s ability to consume light and regurgitate it as despair.
Oh man I really need to re-read. I think I’d always chalked up the despair bits to just being a normal reaction to, “we are tired and hungry and probably going to die while breaking into Mordor and now here’s a bigass spider come to eat us,” but that makes so much sense.
Yeah, she is descended from Ungoliant, who has a lot of her powers due to the fact that like Sauron she was a Maiar corrupted by Melkor. And like Melian passing along her Maiar traits to her kin, Ungoliant probably did the same, albeit in a much more unpleasant fashion.
Why are some of the Maiar beautiful women and others terrifying giant spiders? It seems like an odd mix.
I know this is late but: Some are also Gandalf and Sauron and rivers.
Tolkien clearly subscribed heavily to ‘angels are weird otherworldly creatures and not humanlike at all really’.
Reposted because fucked-up html:
But still [Shelob] was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dur; and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow; for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness. Far and wide her lesser broods, bastards of the miserable mates, her own offspring, that she slew, spread from glen to glen, from the Ephel Duath to the eastern hills, to Dol Goldur and the fastnesses of Mirkwood. But none could rival her, Shelob the great, last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world.”
So Ungoliant was the first monstrous, darkness-vomiting spider, and Shelob is the last of that line, the great monstrous spiders created by Melkor to fill Middle Earth with despair. Her children, then, don’t have their mother’s great and terrible lineage, and so are just regular giant, dwarf-eating spiders who live in the dark and spooky woods.
I loved the version of this with the messed-up HTML. I was at least two lines into the second paragraph before I realized you weren’t still quoting.
And see, now I regret not keeping my original up. I will never actually be ok with any choice I make. Was it the dark and spooky woods that gave me away?
This is why, when my wife wanted to name our daughter Shelob, I insisted that we name her Ungoliant instead.
IIRC Shelob isn’t a descendant so much as literally Ungoliant’s daughter? So it’s not a particularly distant genetic legacy.
Entwives, as shown to me in a “related stories” list on this here page.
1. Every single line of this is gold.
2. I’m gonna tell my friend who’s a direct descendant of Charlemagne that she has a divine right and obligation to go restart the Holy Roman Empire.
Wait, how how did she even find this out?!?!?
Ancestry.com, I think, although it took awhile to follow the connections. But once she hit the part of her family that was nobility (which they haven’t been for a long while), they’d kept pretty good genealogical records.
An episode of QI claimed that anyone with any European ancestry at all is a descendant of Charlemagne. I choose to trust the QI Elves on this, even though they keep changing their minds on how many moons the Earth has.
I once dated a guy who was a direct descendant of a King of Ireland. Turns out they fucked around a lot.
When you learn that at one point there were as many as 150 separate kingdoms in Ireland, it becomes less impressive.
I’ve always wondered how they managed to get so many kingdoms out of Ireland, its bloody tiny. If you had 150 kingdoms it’d be like ‘This is my hill here and you have that hill there and now we’re both kings, do you want to bang my daughter?’
(The kings of Ireland and the Brehans are actually pretty cool, as are all the old legends about the Red Branch Knights and such, for example, the Kingdom of Ulster was created because someone cut off their hand and chucked it over the border to claim the land, and then it was known as the Red Hand of Ulster cause blood presumably)
While most medieval cultures display radically aggressive downward mobility (IE, the lower classes tend to die without producing many offspring due to poor conditions and lack of capital, social or otherwise, excepting those that manage to marry “up”, said surviving upper-lower progeny becoming the “next” lower classes, repeat until lower classes are almost entirely related to upper classes), Ireland is infamous for having this condition on steroids, due to centuries of viking raids, followed eventually by centuries of colonial rule by the English, capped by the catastrophe of the English Civil War and Cromwell’s Protectorate, which was pretty much as bad for Ireland as the Thirty Years War was for the Germanies. The Irish are all children of kings, because everybody else died.
Ok, but there are a lot of us. Charlemagne spread it around a bit.
Eh, pretty sure it wouldn’t be the Holy Roman Empire if there weren’t multiple claimants to the throne anyway.
This is a fair point.
The Holy Roman Empire was elective. They had (hereditary) Electors. Blood was persuasive but not determinative. At certain points in the 18th century, they were electing kings of Poland (who had more actual power as Duke-electors of Saxony than over the infamously fractious and ungovernable Polish nobility) Emperor.
Declaring yourself Holy Roman Emperor is roughly as respectable as declaring yourself Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico. But heck, it worked for Norton I, so why not, go for it!
I will fight you for this throne, o distant cousin
Surely we can form a convenient alliance, which will allow us to rule two theoretically-independent nations under one umbrella.
Sounds like the basis of a healthy cousin relationship! I see no potential downsides here!
I promise not to assassinate any of your heirs in order to install mine on your throne.
Well in that case let’s seal this imperial treaty with a high five!
And a feast!
This is the HRE. You seal the deal with a Diet, not a feast.
Sorry, guys, I’m pretty sure there are still surviving Hapsburg descendants. Aragorn’s claim does hinge on the other line’s being extinct.
Also, Holy Roman Emperor was an elective position; in theory, ancestry is irrelevant.
Pretty sure haters will be first against the wall when either @unreadaethel or I claims our birthright
The Hapsburgs dropped the Holy Roman thing after Napoleon dissolved the Empire, and ruled their last century or so as simply the Emperor of Austria, King of Bohemia, and Apostolic King of Hungary. But hey, any Hapsburgs out there, feel free to declare yourself Apostolic King or Queen of Hungary. The current administration of Hungary is pretty wild, they might dig it.
Nah, I know a Hapsburg descendant who should proclaim herself “Queen of Bohemia.”
I for one am willing to share the throne with other Toast-faction descendants. We should totally make a play for it.
I think @sredni vashtar and I are already setting up some alliances, but I’m sure there are a variety of principalities in need of governance, so we can probably arrange something that will be to the benefit of all.
I’m good with a duchy. No need to get greedy.
True, that is what leads to rebellions and coups.
I’m a descendant of William the Conqueror! Via ancestors who came here on the Mayflower, so on second thought maybe my claim to the throne has already been spent.
Clearly you are the rightful monarch of America. William plus Mayflower? All hail!
Which Mayflower ancestors?! I have John Alden and Priscilla Mullins thirteen generations back. I wanna know if I’m also descended from William the Conqueror!
Oh hey, distant relative! (Also John Alden)
High five!
That also means we’re related to John Adams, Dan Quayle, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, and a girl in my 11th grade US History class.
True fact which you probably already know: most people with Mayflower ancestors have the same ones we do–they had eight children who survived into adulthood, and most of THEIR kids had at least five children; two of them had more than ten.
Also my parents went to Plymouth once and my mom bought little dolls of our distant ancestors in the gift shop, which I find both weird and hilarious.
I knew John Adams, but I didn’t know any of the others OR the true fact! I am honored to count a girl in your 11th grade US History class as part of my family tree.
I’ve got the Billingtons! First Englishman hanged in America, if I’m not mistaken. I love my sordid past.
brb submitting claim to throne of Scotland. Robert the Bruce is totally provable, right?
Oh, wait, a few million others have the same claim? Never mind…
My boyfriend is a descendant of Edward III via John of Gaunt. He likes to talk wistfully about what it will be like when he is king, despite the fact that a) he is descended through several illegitimate children and b) apparently the majority of the English middle class is descended from Edward III*, because he had loads of children. (I read something once on the causes of the Wars of the Roses which started, “Edward III had too many sons”, which is a pretty good summary).
*As far as I am aware I am not; my family tree, which goes back to the late 1700s, is pretty much all Lancashire cotton weavers/labourers etc. Very dispiriting.
Only if she can get a wizard and an army of the dead to back her claim!
If I used his same logic, I could be the Kaiserin RIGHT NOW
All you need is a terrifying ghost army.
THIS IS TRUE.
Faramir, my first irrational literary crush, for steward. MUCH BETTER.
there’s nothing irrational about a crush on Faramir!!!!
THAT IS NOT IRRATIONAL I have read so much Faramir/Eowyn fanfic you have no idea
I’ve just found the most delightful Faramir/genderqueer Eowyn fic with pegging and discussions of gender; may I link you to it?
Oh HELL yes!
YES PLEASE although there’s a decent chance that I’ve read it already because there are SO few good fics for that ship
Yeah, I figured you probably had. Here it is, and be warned, this is the third or fourth fic I’ve read of the two of them (no, seriously, I just went looking for it after bringing up some of the possibilities for amazing sex in Ithilien), so I might not have developed a good eye for E/F fic.
Oh cock. Here. I relied on gmail’s “create link” button, which apparently doesn’t play well with IntenseDebate.
YES THAT IS THE ONE I HAD READ ugh it is so good
I like fanfic Faramir. On the basis of him, I’m declaring Faramir totally better in bed than Aragorn.
Faramir is the best.
Not irrational at all!! Crushing on Faramir is a life philosophy I have long endorsed & I have to say it continues to enrich me. Would recommend.
Completely rational literary crush, tyvm.
Faramir Crush Club Member #??? reporting for duty.
Faramir is <3. This is giving me flashbacks to one of my first graphics projects, which was creating a banner for the “Faramir Fanclub” on the lotrplaza forums.
….and now I’m employed in media, so kids, this is why you should never think your Internet hobbies are stupid.
Just popping over here to say that there seem to be (at least) 2 pro-Faramir threads going on right now, and I am quite pleased.
Faramir 4eva. He is my favorite.
Faramir!!! <3
I think this is the exactly correct forum to point out that the claim that the Kings of Arnor had on the throne of Gondor rested on law/policy allowing inheritance through a daughter. Numenor allowed this, but the Stewards of Gondor, when faced with the prospect of losing their place – well not on the throne so much as right beside a(n empty) throne – asserted that Gondor had never, ever allowed such a thing in a fit of massive motivated reasoning.
And let us not lose sight of the fact that the Prince of Dol Amroth, Imrahil, accepted Aragon as his lord during the course of the battle. In effect, Imrahil, arguably the second most powerful lord of Gondor to Denethor, said, “Dude, you are one cool guy, and I’d totally love to do this suicide march up to the gates of Mordor with you! Hell, when we get there, tell them you’re the new king!”
I think Imrahil likes being number 2, there’s a lot less pressure.
This is indeed the exactly correct forum for this. And you’re right, Arvedui was the son of the daughter of one of the kings of Gondor. BUT, Arvedui claimed the throne not from the Stewards, but from Earnil, a member of the royal house who was elevated to the throne after the primary line died out in battle. Also, there was no way in Thangorodrim Arvedui ever would have been able to make it to Gondor anyway, so his claim was a moot point. He was a fish popsicle within a few years.
Oh my God I’m so happy right now, MY PEOPLE ARE IN THESE COMMENTS
I am hugging all of you like the over-excited hobbit I am.
I feel this way pretty much every time I read the comments. There is a reason this is on the place on the internet where I read comments
I wish this whole storyline hadn’t been left out of the movies. I mean I realize a lot had to be cut, but I’d have loved to see the design for their armor and weapons and stuff.
(And Eomer marries Faramir’s cousin! And they were already brothers-in-law. And now I have a great need for Eomer/Faramir bromance fic.)
Aragorn was also proclaimed king by the people of the city because of his powers of healing (an aspect of the story that was totally lost in the movie) “The hands of the king are the hands of a healer.” is said not once, but twice in The Return of the King. .
I think it is worth remembering though that only the King of Gondor can command the ghost army, because it was to Isildur that they made and broke their original oath. So the fact that they followed Aragorn probably holds some weight.
Also, it is a tenuous claim but as you mention, the Elves live for thousands and thousands of years. It’s not like there was no one alive still when Aragorn was ready to ascend the throne that was alive during Isildur’s life. Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, Cirdan, Gandalf, they were all there. Elrond especially had reason to keep track of the line of the Kings since they were descended from his brother, ring of Barahir and all that. He constantly kept track of the descendants and has a good relationship with the Rangers.
Idk I’ve been itching to reread LotR lately, and I’m in the mood to argue some middle earth history.
My memory is similarly fuzzy, but if we accept that direct descendant of Isildur =/= King of Gondor then doesn’t the ghost army kind of invalidate his claim to the throne since it is confirmation that he is descended from Isildur, not from Anarion?
So I had to look up a family tree to refresh my memory and as it turns out, Arveduri from the line of Isildur married Firiel from the line of Anarion, reuniting the two lines, and it was from them that Aragorn was descended, so technically he does have claim over both Arnor and Gondor.
good old incest, simplifying complicated inheritance claims
We anthropologists call it matrilateral cross cousin marriage, thank you very much 🙂
Double the incest –he marries Arwen, who he’s very much related to. She’s a decades-removed-cousin, and they reunite the line of Beren and Luthien, whose kids chose to be elven or human.
John, is that you?
Aren’t there probably like 8000 other people descended from Isildur though? I mean, presumably Aragorn’s forebears weren’t all chaste or incestuous.
Exactly, it’s slighly unclear how long the people of his line are living- but at that far a remove you would expect thousands of descendants. I am assuming that they are keeping track of the bloodline of the firstborns?
Presumably yes, but its understood that Elrond was kind of keeping track of things over the years and following the direct line since he would naturally have the most investment in it.
Also, wasn’t there the whole “the hands of a healer are the hands of a king” prophesy? I remember people saying it when Aragorn used the Athelas plant to heal Merry and Eowyn.
Well, not Gandalf. He didn’t show up for a couple thousand years….
My only quibble here is that “commands a terrifying ghost army” would be a 100% rock solid qualification for claiming whatever kingship you want in this world or any other. If the dudes occupying that bird park in Oregon commanded a terrifying ghost army, I would be more than happy to recognize the Kingdom of Gunlove or whatever.
Gunhumper Protectorate, ruled over by Scraggly the First, Illiterate Gun-Fucker-For-Life and Ruler of That Bunch of Trees Over There But Not The Ones Across the Road Thems The Government’s Trees
All I could think about reading this was that Arwen gave up immortality for THIS.
The elf-ladies do not have a great track record when it comes to immortality vs. hot dude
You would think, being immortal and whatnot, they’d realize that hot dudes come around pretty frequently when you literally have all the time in the world to wait for them. I mean. You’re an ELF LADY for crying out loud! You’ve got your pick of man-toys! Stop being so emo, pull yourself together, and go out there and Get Some.
Ahem. Apparently I have a lot of Thoughts about elf sexuality as it relates to their long lives.
Agreed. I would read those tales of endless dalliances. And with all their herbal knowledge and whatnot they must know prevention and treatment for STD’s. Win-win.
To be fair, most elf-ladies, or elves in general for that matter, don’t actually have the choice whether or not to be immortal. Like, if Kili had lived and Tauriel had wanted to get on that, technically she could have if she really wanted to, but she didn’t have the choice to give up immortality to be with him. Arwen only got to choose because she is a descendent of Elrond.
I feel like I am the only person who genuinely liked the Kili/Tauriel thing.
No, believe me, if I were a beautiful, terrifying, immortal elf lady, I’d be banging all the hot dudes and then discarding them like hot rocks once they got too old to keep up with my insatiable elf lady libido. FOREVER. BECAUSE IMMORTAL.
DING DING DING
ahem I think you mean DONG DONG DONG
Idril managed okay.
idril <3
Although, Tuor wasn’t much to speak of.
remember, elves mate for life, like pigeons and catholics.
they choose their one mate, they rarely have more than one or two children, if the mate goes to the Halls of Mandos, they almost never remarry (Finwe was an exception) … they have ponfarr once every five centuries or something. elves are not super horny.
I’m afraid this is another case of Tolkien imposing his extremely reactionary brand of Catholicism on his characters; also the fall-out from his own loss of his father, then of his mother. He doesn’t allow widowed characters to re-marry because his mother didn’t.
Too many folks long for immortality who can’t figure out what to do on a Saturday afternoon.
Seriously, after all the Been There, Done That involved with fighting primal evil for a few millenia in Middle Earth it was probably something she looked forward to.
I don’t have time to read this right now, but I can already say, with conviction: WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAT.
My blood pressure is rising and I haven’t even read this yet.
Also, Aragorn’s 37 generations were out in the woods with nary another Numenorian in sight. So, like, pure Numenorian blood? The guy is like one trillionth Numenorian.
I’ve alerted a good friend of mine who also thinks waaaaay too much about this (and I say that as someone who has read LOTR 25 times).
I cannot wait to enjoy the smoking ruin that The Toast will become….
Pretty sure the Toast commentariat can handle over-thinking of fantasy literature. It’s kind of our thing.
Sure, sure…
I believe these questions are still open, if you would care to take a crack at them:
> So, we’ve just left Moria and are headed into Lothlorien. Where the mallorns (or mellyrn) are golden. They have golden leaves. They look like “a sea of fallow gold”.
>
> And yet, Caras Galadon, which he specifically says is composed of mallorns, looks like a city of green towers. In fact he hammers the green bit down several times. WTF, JRRT?
>
> Also, how did Gollum (and the orcs for that matter) follow them so quickly out of Moria after Gandalf broke the bridge which was supposedly the only way in and out?
The mallorns are only gold at certain times of the year–doesn’t Legolas say “oh man I wish we were here at the golden tree time, but it’s okay, these regular green trees are still pretty hot”? Or words to that effect.
As far as your first 2 questions go, gold can and does change color over time, and with the help of other environmental factors. (see image):
Gollum probably scuttled across on the ceiling, he’s a scuttly kind of dude.
Yes, the mallorn trees have golden leaves, but their trunks are silver, and there are also great swathes of green grass, green “as if it glowed still in memory of the sun that had gone.” The effect of Lothlorien from a distance, or from above, is gold, but within the wood itself, everything is various shades of gold, silver, and green.
Narrative convenience. Or else there were ways out that were strong enough for Orcs, but not strong enough for the Balrog, which was the primary enemy whose passage Gandalf was trying to block.
Presumably the orcs have dug out other exits and tunnels beside the East Gate during their time as rulers of Moria.
Everybody needs a hobby.
According to some genealogical research one of my aunts did, our surname means “lackey” and our ancestors were basically the weaselly little toadies for some Polish army general.
Basically, were I in Middle-Earth, I think my genetics qualify me to be Grima Wormtongue.
I have always liked Grima for some reason? IDK if it’s simply because of Brad Dourif’s amazingness or because I’ve always kinda understood why someone would side with Sauron-slash-side against the Fellowship because screwing with The Big Bad means DEATH
My mom’s maiden name basically means “Town drunks”
So, we’d basically be hobbits. Very tall hobbits.
My last name was made up in the 1800s as a tax dodge (it means “money-less.” I don’t think it worked). I think that makes my ancestors the Sackville-Bagginses?
My real name (this is a sneaky internet one) means “daughter of silver” which I think is awesome and very Tolkien-y. However, when they say things like “95% of people are descended from x-monarch” I’ve always thought how crap it would be if you were one of the teeny-tiny percentage of people descended from the gutter-un-clogger or something and everyone else has lovely megalomaniac royal ancestors.
It would mean that the clan of gutter-un-cloggers had the most amazing badass genes in the entire province, because everybody else survived due to the social capital and superior nutrition from being related to somebody with the resources to get the in-laws through the occasional famine or plague. Mr. 1% Sewer-Mucker’s ancestors survived like cockroaches. Why am I suddenly picturing Sir Tony Robinson in full Blackadder muck regalia?
My Polish last name literally means “visa.” Yours is more interesting.
This is the best thing I’ve ever read. I had no idea that there was textual support for Bachelor Manbabies in Middle Earth.
Honestly I clicked on this expecting to get my dander up (I am fully on Team Hot Octogenarian, which is not something I ever expected to say), but your argument is ironclad.
ugh the worst thing though is that they aren’t even bachelors. Erendis, Queen of Numenor as mentioned above, was talking about her husband Aldarion aka the worst. Their whole story is in the Unfinished Tales and its fairly long but to sum it up: Aldarion really loves ships but he has to get married because he is King so he marries Erendis who loves land and not being constantly on a boat for years on end. Basically their whole timeline consists of Aldarion being like “babe I swear this is my last trip its only gonna be like 5 years max this time I swear” and then being gone for like 20 years because he just really loves the sea.
So it’s ‘Brandy, you’re a fine girl’….but in Sindarin.
jinx!
It’s a lot like that song “Brandy,” except they do get married and Brandy is like SIIIIIGH
#middleearthtruther
#elfconspiracytocontrolgondor
#elessardidbenghazi
JET FUEL CAN’T MELT WHITE RODS OF STEWARDSHIP
Obama
S
G
I
Lied
I
Aragorn
T
Hunky
Obama
Stabbed
Gandalf
Impostor
Lied
Infidel
Aragorn
Is
Hunky
…I think that conspiracy theory got a little distracted towards the end there. Understandable.
I generally imagine that Faramir was thrilled to get Gondor off his hands, and his parting words to Aragorn may well have been a far more poetic version of “So long sucker. Faramir OUT.”
“Yup, off to live in a woodland paradise with my hot, badass wife, have fun restoring the glory of our dwindling kingdom, we’re going to go deal with our lingering emotional trauma, and also have massive amounts of sex in the woods.”
EXACTLY.
The waterfall of Henneth Anun at sunset? Glorious honeymoon location, I’m just saying.
This is everything I’ve ever believed about what happened after those books ended
The disheveled dryad weariness of the garden of Gondor is tailor-made for all sorts of romping. “See yon mossy bank? Yeah, we did it there. And the greensward beneath this canopy of sprawling oaks? I’ve actually forgotten how many times we banged here. Oh, the little stone hut behind the waterfall? You…might not want to sit on, seriously, anything in that entire room.”
One thing the movies changed that always bummed me out was how much alike Denethor and Faramir were – more about knowledge and wisdom than warfare. Denethor admired Boromir because B was different from himself, not because they were the same. There were some great nuances in the books about those relationships that they basically bulldozed over in the movies.
In general, I still take issue with the general bulldozing of Faramir’s character in the movies. I’ve come to terms with it over the years (I love the movies, despite their flaws) but that is mostly by treating book-Faramir and movie-Faramir as different characters.
all the yes. Faramir is my one really massive major complaint about the movies #bookFaramirforever
all of this.
yes this
This is a beautiful comment, though it brings up many latent feelings of rage. It’s not only the way the film presents that narrative, either, some of the supplementary material makes it pretty clear that Jackson misread that relationship, and Faramir’s character, entirely. Although I did like David Wenham. (Sixteen year-old me, to anyone who stood still long enough: did Jackson even read the appendices??? Faramir was wronged!)
I am getting ever closer to rereading all material and rewatching all the movies (extended version, be for real) for the sole purpose of writhing in anguish over the misreading of Faramir. Someone stop me (just kidding, don’t stop me, this will be great, all writhing in anguish aside).
Is there any woman, anywhere, who would actually take Aragorn over Faramir (book-Faramir, anyway) as husband? I feel sorry for her.
This is an excellent question, and absolutely book-Faramir is the best choice (and I say this with alot of fervent love for movie-Aragorn).
Pretty much. Also, while Aragorn is kingly, Faramir is both good and knowable. Everyone who knows Faramir loves him, and feels a deep personal loyalty to him as an individual, not just as a representative of the stewardship (Pippin! Names his son! Faramir!). I read Faramir’s decision to step aside as admirable not only because of legitimacy/the restoration of the kingdom, but because Faramir is over and over more capable of refusing power than almost anyone in the history of Middle Earth. (lookin’ at you Noldor)
Would this be the right place to ask if anyone else has been watching MTV’s inexplicable Shannara series? Because I have some thoughts on its portrayal of hot, steroid using Gandolf-analog Allanon. My thoughts are basically as follows: MTV’s Allanon is pretty cool.
I’ve heard that it’s good to get into if you’re a LotR fan but I haven’t checked it out yet. Is there any truth to that??
its certainly not going to be included in any anthologies about the golden age of television, but they are doing a remarkably good job. Some very cool visuals that should inspire a generation of our nation’s most stoned nerds at least.
this makes me want to see it. I’m kind of amazed that there are still Shannara books coming out, but Terry Brooks seems like a nice guy. I might try to read one of them and watch the show, given how into these books I was in high school.
Perhaps I will check it out. Is it worthwhile to read the books before watching the show??
I think they are only doing the show based on the 2nd book in the series (Elfstones of Shannara?) which i remember being perfectly enjoyable when I was 15 but which i haven’t read since.
When I saw what an utter and deliberate ripoff of LotR the first Shannara book was, I foreswore that series forever.
It finds its own after that; Elfstones is much better than Sword.
I reread it, what, ten years ago? In my thirties? Wow did I love it less than when I was 13. But the trees look pretty.
I loved the books as a teenager, and I don’t think they’ve held up well (more in a not-great writing way, rather than a Piers Anthony “jesus christ how did I miss how fucked-up these are” kind of way). But they’re quick reads, and generally widely available at your local used books emporium.
I emphatically hear you on both those counts. I am these days very hesitant to revisit fantasy books of my youth. (Though I do go back to the Belgariad/Malloreon now and again, and I know they’re bad, but they were so formative to my young self that I’m willing to give them at least a partial pass).
I feel the exact same way, they were terrible but…. (Also, what a complete and utter mess of High Fantasy tropes. Goodness.)
I am still a bit appalled at how many Piers Anthony books I read as an impressionable youth.
NODS EMPHATICALLY.
Seriously. Although it did allow me to thoroughly enjoy the episode of “I Don’t Even Own a Television” where they talked about one of his books.
yup!
My main thought upon watching the first double episode is that they’ve MTV-ed it up to 11. I don’t really mind, though. Amberle in the book doesn’t really have a ton of agency so turning her into some kind of bad-assed Chosen isn’t horrible. Wil is way whinier that I had pictured though. Oh, and more nudity in the first 45 min than are in all of the Shannara books combined.
ok I have not (yet) read the Shannara books or seen the show but I googled it and apparently Allanon is played by Manu Bennett who is FIIINNNEEEE as heck so yes you have excellent taste. *cough* he is also frequently in various stages of undress on the ridiculous Spartacus TV show *cough*
Seems fairly analogous to Henry VII’s claim to the Lancastrian succession. “Yeah,” everyone says “it may be bullshit, but best not to think about it too hard with the big-ass army behind him.”
Well, at least Aragorn wasn’t murdering all the other potential heirs or contestors.
They just all died conveniently beforehand.
What, Henry of Richmond didn’t murder the Princes in the Tower! He just mysteriously pardoned the guy who supposedly did, and then gave him the Calais governorship for no apparent reason… oh, wait. But Thomas More totally swore on a stack of bibles that it was all Harry Crouchback’s doing, that evil Yorkist hunchback. #tudortyrants
I thought the same thing and I love that you said it.
This is the article I have spent years waiting for, without ever quite knowing it.
YES
*nerd voice* Arvedui (House of Isildur) married Fíriel (House of Anárion) so while he was no legitimate claimant to the throne of Gondor, his marriage unified the two royal houses and his legitimate descendants (including Aragorn) were also legitimate claimants to both thrones. Thusly Aragorn was crowned High King of the Reunited Kingdom of Arnor and Gondor. Think the unification of the crowns of England and Scotland, except less outright murder. It’s understandable this is glossed over in the films to prevent them being a million billion hours long.
That’s what I’m saying! It’s a totally legitimate claim. But seeing as Jackson didn’t even want to include the ghost army its not surprise he left out Arvedui.
“Glossed over” — Peter Jackson’s middle name.
It’s actually short for “glossed over in favor of unrelated, made-up subplots.”
Or “we need more time for Arwen to done fall out for no plausible reason, because there’s not enough motivation to save the world from the Dark Lord of Fuck Everything unless your girl done falls out.”
And after we’d increased Arwen’s agency in Fellowship, too. I was so pissed.
Every time I manage to forget about that entire thing, somebody has to go and remind me. :/
Yeah, that was weird and annoying, how she went from super-cool to swooning fairytale princess. None of the others of her house were affected so. What I would have liked to see was _her_ be the one to bring the re-forged sword to Aragorn and say, go get ’em tiger. There’s plenty of motivation right there.
I’m not well-read enough in these books to properly comment but i’m reading every word because god damn I love all you pedants and I want you to deconstruct everything I have ever loved. Also, the illustrations are straight-up brilliant.
My feelings exactly. But this is also clarifying a lot about Middle Earth that was deeply cloudy to me when I first read the books.
Look, he finds another White Tree, the symbol of kingship brought from Numenor, right on the eve of his wedding. At least several mystical powers are on his side here, I’m not gonna get in their way.
His hands are also the hands of a healer. Is that not PROOF ENOUGH
he called back Eowyn FROM THE BEYOND by making herbal tea you guys
Speaking of illegitimacy: if you’re claiming 37 generations of patrilineal descent from pretty much anyone, you’re kidding yourself. Dollars to donuts, Aragorn’s Y chromosome wasn’t from Elendil, but rather from some particularly comely Arnorian milkman somewhere along the line.
This is why I have never understood patrilineal descent. If you’re going to use presumed shared genetic content as the basis for your inheritance scheme, it makes far more sense to go matrilineal.
Indeed. It takes a lot on trust…
Ahem, these are magical Y chromosomes?
Granted, that was pretty much the claim for all of them, wasn’t it.
Every day I am reminded that YOU ARE MY PEOPLE.
tbh I think the Shire needs to send out more zines about their agrarian-anarcho commune system, way better than all this kings and stewards nonsense.
Yes. I would read all of that.
Who gets to be king? Whoever the spellcasting, sword-wielding, Balrog-slaying, resurrected angel/Odin/Jesus says should be king, that’s who. If Aragorn were eaten by a Warg, Gandalf would doubtless consult his notes and determine that Faramir should be king. If Faramir dies from orc-arrows, Eowyn should be king. If Eowyn dies from wraith-farts, Sam should be king. If Sam dies of an internal rupture from carrying all those saucepans around, then one of Beorn’s bipedal dog servants should be king. All hail King Laddie the First.
Pippin will never be king.
Fool of a Took!
YES. Gandalf is the total kingmaker. I love that part in the books where Aragorn has decided he’s not going to enter the city until he’s made king, and then Gandalf sneaks him in anyway to do his healing routine and then gets all the old ladies from the Houses of Healing to go and natter about how the king has returned. THAT IS SOME GRASSROOTS POLITICKING, DID THEY TEACH YOU THAT IN MAIAR SCHOOL
I wish to go to Maiar School, where may I queue for it?
This! This! This! I just don’t get how it is that people don’t get how much down-and-dirty string-pulling Gandalf does.
Quite. His manipulations in Erebor and Dale were tantamount to dynastic murder.
Fool of a Took!
I am absolutely THIRSTING to see what Stephen Colbert would say about this article, as he is in my estimation one of the most delightful and clearly well-versed Tolkien Nerds of our time.
If Colbert personally eviscerates my argument on national television, I will die happy.
I may or may not have tweeted at him about it. I suspect I am not alone.
I was thinking the same thing! I hope he sees it.
Whatever with Aragorn’s right to the throne, I just enjoy looking at all the Eärendil-Elwing family trees and realizing that Aragorn and Arwen are more or less first cousins, 80 zillion times removed.
I remember discovering that after I first read the books and saw the movies in 8th grade and just having my mind blown. I went around telling everyone who even cared the smallest bit about LotR. Really nothing has changed much since then, I just have increasingly obscure Tolkien facts that fewer people understand.
1. Okay, but does anyone really believe that Aragorn is doing any ruling? All of his experience is in tracking and killing things. Gondor is being governed by Arwen and Faramir, you cannot convince me otherwise.
2. This bit of genealogy has always bothered me, thank you for bringing it to the attention of a wider public.
(3. Goddammit some day I will write the post-colonial Gondor fic about re-establishing trade relationships with Harad, thus enabling the long-dormant coffee habits of all the survivors of the Battle of Dagorlad (among other unexpected consequences).)
Would read #3. I decided on the last reread that the Haradrim depicted fighting for Sauron are merely mercenaries, and that somewhere in the East another epic battle of good and evil is being played out with the help of the other two Istarii, who did NOT fall into darkness. After the dust settles, Middle Earth will eventually reestablish ties with the rest of the world.
Crossover: one of those Istarii is Kingsley Shacklebolt’s direct ancestor. And yes, I know wizards don’t work that way. Shut up.
I mean…we know that Maiar can reproduce (see Thingol and Melian)…and according to Tolkien, Middle Earth is our world in a previous age…seems perfectly logical to me!!
That’s also where all the dwarven rings are.
I will 100% read this. All I really want out of life is fic about people rebuilding functional societies in the wreckage wrought by sci-fi and fantasy stories. TELL ME ABOUT THE ADMINISTRATION!
Have you read The Goblin Emperor, by Katherine Addison? That book is EXTREMELY YOUR JAM.
No, but I will immediately add it to the list. Very exciting.
I absolutely adore The Goblin Emperor….
What are you talking about, they had coffee in Middle Earth already 🙂 🙂 🙂 they don’t have to re-discover it 🙂
“A big jug of coffee bad just been set in the hearth, the seed-cakes were gone, and the dwarves were starting on a round of buttered scones, when there came-a loud knock. Not a ring, but a hard rat-tat on the hobbit’s beautiful green door.” The Hobbit
Maybe they grew coffee beans in Khand or somewhere else hahaha pretty funny. It’s actually fitting that coffee is a drink of choice for the dwarves, what would they do during long nights of hard work in forges and steelworks and foundries, they need something energizing :). But seriously Aragorn’s claim is more legitimate than most monarchs of our world were :).
Gondor being governed by Arwen and Faramir while Aragorn scuttles about the mountains tracking bandits or hunting? Works for me! But he does have at least a few years of leadership, as Chieftain of the Dunedain, in between all the journeying/questing of his pre-LOTR years.
Yessssssss! Have been waiting with excitement for this piece!
“One elf’s Valinor is another elf’s Angband.” I will start using this phrase from now on.
I think marrying Arwen is what strengthened his claim to the throne, kind of like Henry VII marrying Elizabeth of York. Have a questionable claim to the throne? Find a useful princess, preferably one that is the niece of the undisputed first King of Numenor. The age gap of almost 3000 years is a bit much in this case though.
But it was a condition on Aragorn’s marriage to Arwen that he be king of both Arnor and Gondor.
It works both ways I think. You win the war and the crown, then you get some added legitimacy with a good marriage. The fact that you don’t have a very strong claim besides military victory becomes moot once you marry the elven princess.
ok look
Unlike the Roman Empire, the government of Gondor has not changed since the early Third Age. Nominally, at least. Because the Stewards explicitly never claimed the throne. Even then, Aragorn’s claim of lineage is verifiable.
Gondor was always a Numenorean kingdom and bloodline was always accepted. Moreover, Aragorn is descended from the dissenting rebel Numenoreans who defied the alliance with Sauron at the end of the Second Age, and so, insofar as there is blame to be cast, he deserves less.
That being said, this was all resolved in the Yuletide Revolution (year 405 of the Fourth Age) that overthrew the kingdom and ushered in the era of the Republic of Gondor. Aragorn’s claim to the throne is weak but legitimate. The real question was, and always had been: what was the legitimacy of the throne itself?
Lake-town Esgaroth is mercantile republic (with Master of Lake-town elected from among old and wise) and it didn’t pay off to them 🙂 (well until the first greedy, cunning poltician of a Master died in wastes with stolen gold and new Master provided some good business), Shire had it’s Mayor with elections every seven years on Free Fair (and it seems Mayor of Michel Delving/Shire had some more than honorary role as it appears mayors could shape legal matters among hobbits like the ruling of Master Samwise concerning inheritance law :):). Screw republics, democracy is overrated 🙂 🙂 :). But more seriously the question of leadership as Tolkien viewed it is difficult, as he once wrote:
“the most improper job of any man, even saints (who at any rate were at least unwilling to take it on), is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity.”
And besides:
“A Númenórean King was monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate; but he governed the realm with the frame of ancient law, of which he was administrator (and interpreter) but not the maker. In all debatable matters of importance domestic, or external, however, even Denethor had a Council, and at least listened to what the Lords of the Fiefs and the Captains of the Forces had to say. Aragorn re-established the Great Council of Gondor, and in that Faramir, who remained by inheritance the Steward (or representative of the King during his absence abroad, or sickness, or between his death and the accession of his heir) would [be] the chief counsellor.”
THIS WAS AMAZING.
Also: Aragorn uses Anduril very often to prove his legitimacy, iirc (to Eomer at their first meeting, to the Dead Men), which always struck me as very funny considering how anti-Arthuriana Tolkien was and how strongly this resembles legends of Excalibur.
So, imo, much of his claim to the throne rests on his prior claim to the shards of Narsil/Anduril. Since these are provided to him by Elrond, who has been around since the First Age and was there when all the Isildur shit went down, that also strengthens it.
…It could be sort of like the Pope endorsing a new monarch of the Holy Roman Empire, except the Pope is immortal. And then the monarch marries the Pope’s daughter, who’s related to the original monarch anyways? idek.
And “Estel” literally means “hope,” who doesn’t want to be led into the Fourth Age, the Age of Men, by King Hope. But then, iirc, that name was given to him by Elrond/the Imladris elves, so. idk about that.
Also: Faramir’s mother Finduilas had elvish ancestry, no? maybe he could make a bid via that (foreseeing King, very useful). I don’t think it was *royal* elvish ancestry, but the Gondorian nobles all seem to be very into it anyways.
Of course, I am Team Democracy and would very much like Faramir to institute some sort of elected government (since he doesn’t particularly want to be in charge anyways). It would be great if they then elected Faramir as leader anyways, because Faramir is My Favorite and would be a fantastic leader, especially with Eowyn at his side.
(in this version, Aragorn can go off and rebuild Arnor, which I always felt got sort of a shit deal. Do the Dunedain just stay there? without any cities or infrastructure? will they rebuild, now that Sauron’s forces are gone? will they become part of Gondor, or retain their independence? If Aragorn is king of Gondor, who will lead Arnor? (I care too much about Arnor and the Dunedain, forgive me).)
As far as I know I don’t *think* Finduilas has elvish ancestry. There was the high elf Finduilas in the first age who lived in Nargothrond, is that what you’re thinking?? As if all of this needed to be more confusing, a bunch of the line of stewards were named after ancient elves of the first and second age.
Also yes oh man I really love Arnor. I always wanted to see more of the old cities of Arnor, I was so fascinated by them. It’s hard because really once all the Kings became ringwraiths Arnor was basically just abandoned as a kingdom. The only thing that’s left there is what, the ruins Angmar? No one wants that. Maybe they can rebuild Weathertop and start a city around there? Idk. I want to know more about Arnor.
Finduilas was of the princely house of Dol Amroth, which supposedly had Silvan Elvish blood from a few centuries back, so, yeah, both Faramir and Boromir would have been 1/something-something Elvish.
It’s probably similar to the way every American family with over 100 years here claims to be a little bit Cherokee. Exotic romantic family tradition, maybe or maybe not true, but not very prove le one way or the other.
I was about to say that “Arnor is my #1 under-explained part of Middle Earth” except then I remembered that, you know, everything south and east exists as well, and we get… one sentence total about the Haradrim? Honestly, I would love a 12-volume series on the *actual* in-universe History of Middle Earth. As long as at least one volume is “this is how international geopolitical relations function” and another is “What the Dunedain Did After the War of the Ring” and, like, a whole trilogy on “how Sauron enslaved(?) conquered(?) all of Harad, which isn’t even a unified nation iirc and also how do orcs survive in a bright, hot desert”
I’ve always imagined Arnor as a wilderness with a few decrepit old Roman-style roads linking dilapidated, abandoned cities that, by the time of the War of the Ring, are only overgrown piles of white stone.
According to the Appendices, iirc, Aragorn builds a house somewhere up there and stays there sometimes (and visits the Shire, of course). So there’s some rebuilding done… But he’s got his hands full enough with Gondor, so I’ve always imagined his son Eldarion or perhaps a grandson deciding to take on the Grand Project of Restoring Arnor to its Former Glory.
(there are so many great tidbits about Arnor. Angmar! Snowmen! Cirdan’s up there somewhere!)
Saruman: “How’s all that Estel-y changey stuff workin’ out for ya?”
I know that somewhere there must be an Obama-Hope style picture that has Aragorn’s face and says ‘Estel’ underneath it. I know this. Someone find it for me.
😀 😀 😀
I would trade in the entire reunited kingdom of Arnor and Gondor to be the Thain of the Shire and just pretend to be in charge while chilling out in Great Smials with my ale and my weed.
And how come mortal ladies don’t get to marry elves? Has that never happened? Austin, set me straight!
Ok you just gave an answer to the Mallorn question up thread — here is another from the same source:
“Also, Gollum – “whitish hand”, “black squirrel”, etc. He alternates between bone-white and black throughout the book. Maybe he has chromatophores.”
The One Wiki says this, though I don’t know what their source is: “In a manuscript written to guide illustrators to the appearance of his characters, Tolkien explained this by saying that Gollum had pale skin, but wore dark clothes and was often seen in poor light.”
Gollum wore CLOTHES?!?
In the Hobbit it even heavily implies that his clothes have pockets, which is pretty next-level if you ask me
Well, there is the weird suggestion that the Prince of Dol Amroth had some Elvish blood – apparently it’s no big deal unless the Elf is a High Elf. Christ, the beings of Middle Earth are some classist, racist jerks.
Never that I know of, though there could be an instance in an older, apocraphyal story collected in The History of Middle-earth. Also, as Blue Minerva says, it’s only a big deal when it’s a High-Elf who marries a mortal, so we can head canon up as many Mortal Ladies marrying Silvan Elves as our hearts desire.
#TeamThain
Well, there was Andreth, who fell in love with a son of Finarfin… he says he loves her as well, but then he gets his brother to offer her some bullshit excuse about why they can’t get married (ok, ok, it’s actually pretty heartbreaking) after he has left for a siege where, iirc, he dies. fun!
If you want to read the story of Haleth and her interactions with Curufin in a romantic way (please do, and then write some fanfic so I can read it), there’s a wide extracanonical belief that they were involved.
The only example of any sort of romance of a male elf and human woman is case of Andreth and Aegnor. Andreth was a “wise-woman” of the Edain (apparently some sort of female scholar) and Aegnor one of the elf princes of the Noldor, older brother of Galadriel and younger brother of Finrod FElagund and Angrod. Unfortunately nothing came out of this because Aegnor died in battle but for the sake of him Andreth never married but remained in friendship with Finrod (and had intelligent philosophical conversations with him :)).
Here, take my money. No literally, take it. *Tips a $20*
And then there’s the whole “Aragorn and Arwen are the next Beren and Luthien”. Seriously? Like, what did they do? Make a banner? March through some snowstorms? Deal with some ghosts? THAT IS NO WALTZING INTO ANGBAND.
And yes, I know, it’s supposed to be great deeds done by little people, but the Luthien/Arwen Beren/Aragorn comparison is a bit much.
Oh AGREED. call me when you’ve defeated Sauron in combat and wrested a Silmaril from Morgoth’s crown to be your own bride-piece and then brought your husband back from the dead by singing. Arwen can’t even do the grow-your-hair-a-lot trick.
Next Tuor and Idriel, more like!
Again, what did Tuor ever do to become the only immortal man?
I mean he did sail all the way to the undying lands, which no other mortal had ever done. Until you know, Frodo and eventually Sam and Gimli. But at the time he was the only one on a super divine mission. But really they made him immortal because once someone went to Valinor they were there forever so its their own fault. Also since they gave him the choice to be immortal and stay with Idril or die eventually away from her. Its all on them.
He could sail.
Kind of took the specialness away when Gimli managed to do it
You’ve missed one of the most important points of Tolkien’s Middle-Earth mythos: that things that come after are always already a pale imitation of the great things that came before. Things in Middle Earth are always fading. The Beren/Luthien Aragorn/Arwen comparison is apt for that reason, if for no other.
” Narnia seems magical and wondrous until you realize its version of Jesus, in our world a kindly carpenter, is an apex predator with six-inch claws and razor-sharp teeth.”
Let us also not overlook the Savior’s barbed penis.
I was always deeply disturbed by the drawing of Jadis’s death in ‘The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe’. A beautiful woman, not in armour, with only a dagger, being jumped on and mauled by a bloody huge lion? I wanted to rescue her.
Except that Isildur’s line (of which Aragorn was the heir in direct and right descent) was the only royal line left standing at the end of the Third Age according to the Numenorean laws of succession, which were a combination of primogeniture without respect to gender and purity of Numenorean descent. It’s important to remember that Elendil (and Isildur after him) were considered High Kings of both Arnor in the north *and* Gondor in the south. Isildur and Anarion had ruled Gondor together as co-rulers during Elendil’s lifetime, and Gondor was considered more of a client state until the collapse of the northern kingdom and the destruction of Annuminas. If a descendant of Anarion’s line had been available after the death of Earnur, Gondor would not have been turned over to the Stewards, and the throne would not have remained vacant for so long. By the time it became possible for Aragorn to press his claim, Gondor was the only Numenorean stronghold left standing and he was the only legitimate heir.
Not exactly the only line. There was another, more rightful pretendent to the throne of Gondor – the Witch-King, a.k.a Tar-Cyriatan.
Elrond, unquestionably, did know who was the Witch-King, because he was of his bloodline, a relative, as matter as fact, his nephew 11 times removed. This is why the dates, given to Merriadoc were incomplete and all of the sudden the name of the Witch-King “fell out” of the elve’s chronology. Actually, it is quite understandable: many of us would rather forget and never mention the “black sheep” of the family, than to broadcast about it.
YOU KNOW, as much as I adore the Witch-king and model my life after him, it hadn’t occurred to me that he was likely of the line of Elros, too, given that he was probably a high-level Black Numenorean. That gives more narrative weight to his relentless and ultimately successful wars against the Heirs of Elendil.
Oooh, interesting. Where are you getting this?
It is my own deductive work, have already taken a few pages and growing.:-) I found it’s very interesting to find in Tolkien’s books something, which confirms my wild hypothesis. The key points are in very official sources “Annals” and “The Line of Elros.” Tolkien was working on the chronology of Numenorean’s kings for a quite long time, but instead of smoothing out all roughness in the dates of events , he has began to do deliberate corrections, by definition of his son, the “mistakes”. I think, that Tolkien has been planning in an indirect way to point out on the real person of the one, who later became the King-Nazgul. When I compared the dates, I came to an astonishing revelation, and farther studies of Tolkien’s texts just confirmed my theory of the Witch-King as a one of the greatest kings of Numenor.
“soon they will go back to their great play, manslaying and war”
I totally read this as “mansplaining and war.”
Tomato, tomahto
The comparison to a descendent of Romulus claiming the Turkish throne reminds me of my biggest problem with Gondor – 3,000 years, and no technological innovations? No discernible change in culture, lifestyle, gizmos, social order, nothing? Just 3000 years to bemoan your creeping loss of pure-blood status and dwindle? Where are your Guttenburgs, your Teslas, your Jobses?
Numenoreans suuuuuck.
Gondor was modeled on ancient Egypt. Not much tech. innovation there either.
Egypt?
Seriously, Gondor was one-half Judea (half of a split holy kingdom, whose northern sister-kingdom fell into chaos and was destroyed by a terrible terror-state from the east) and one-half Frank-land, with a sacred kingship (Merovingians!) dying off and being supplanted by lowly steward-sovereigns (Charles Martel and Pippen(!!) the Short).
It could also be compared to Byzantium (one half of the ancient empire, lasted for hundreds of years after the otehr half was overrun by barbarians, but now gradually being eaten up until its basically just one heavily-fortified city left).
Third Age 1002: Findegil Gutenberg creates the first movable type, and shortly thereafter is killed by a vengeful ghost army of undead Gondorian scribes.
TA 2014: Noldorean Tesla invents a device that transmits and receives sounds. It attracts the attention of malevolent wraiths, who whisper insidious secrets to him until he goes insane.
TA 2189: Silturin Jobs devises a system to share information globally. It connects his mind directly with the Dark Lord, and he becomes the Mouth of Sauron.
Oh man, amazing new conspiracy theory where the Stewards deliberately limit social and technological prowess to keep society in stasis until the line of kings is remade. They dwindle and stagnate, rather than admit the need to give up on the ancient prophecies and just build a functional society now.
What are you talking about?! There is change, both social and ‘technological’, Gondor had it’s period of expansion and then started to deteriorate, knowledge and technology of old is lost. The end of Third Age is a great decline for Gondor, much of the achievements of Numenor are lost and no longer replicable, there is loss of knowledge even in field of building and engineering that Numenoreans pride themselves for, their architecture is in decline, they lose territories and their great fleets which gave them domination over seas (and corsairs of Umbar are a threat to coastlands and all the traffic on the sea). Early Third Age Numenoreans had superior steel, had ‘magic’ Seat of Seeing build, structures made of nearly indestructible black substance (Orthanc and outer wall of Minas Tirith), they used super steel bows, they had ‘magical’ cordial and wafers resembling lembas and miruvor (“for medicine and other arts of Numenor were potent and not yet forgotten”), they become empire, gain great wealth (that people used to said ‘precious stones are pebbles in Gondor for children to play with’) and lose much, history goes in great cycles, has it’s highs and lows, Lotr takes place in one such low :).
Tolkien hates technology, that’s why. Dwarves do some kinds of technology, which is one reason he’s so sniffy about them. I would be happy with Dwarven steampunk.
My personal investment in the lore of LotR is definitely much more casual than many in this thread (my deep lore predilections lie elsewhere), but I still absolutely adore this piece and every single person nerding out in the comments here. It’s an absolute delight!
Also, that “See Middle-Earth” illustration darn near killed me. I have a love for all of the WPA National Parks posters in general and Carlsbad Caverns in particular, and that Cirith Ungol parody is amazing and hilarious and I kind of really want to put it up on my wall.
Just in case you don’t already know about this, you can buy replica wpa national park posters here and they’re really lovely: http://www.rangerdoug.com/posters
Thank you for this! they are GORGEOUS.
His coming was foretold by prophecy!
He healed the sick as only the true king could! (Otherwise Eowyn wouldn’t have had the chance to bag Faramir, just saying)
He commanded the freaking ghost army as only the true king could.
Anyone who gets to marry Arwen is a true king and I give him my axe, sword, bow, whatever.
This article us steward sympathetic propaganda and I will pay it no heed.
Which is doubly meaningless as the Last Ruling Steward accepted Aragorn as King!
Along related lines: any attempt by Isildur’s heirs to reassert themselves after Isildur’s death would have been foolhardy. They knew that Sauron’s servants were constantly looking for them, and once Sauron had recovered enough to take form in Dol Guldur he started looking for the Ring in earnest. He had good reason to believe that Isildur’s heirs still had it. If the Dunedain had declared themselves too early, Sauron would have eaten Gondor for lunch, and probably eventually had the Ring to help him take over the rest.
The Toast’s Tolkien Correspondent (best job title ever!) is certainly not the only one to think along similar lines. *cough* Is it time for fanfic recs yet? Are we that deep into nerdery? Yea, verily:
Hands of the King by Anglachel
Basically, Denethor and Finduilas have to teach Aragorn some things in order for him to be a decent king. (Presumably their son fills in the rest.) Warning — do not read if you don’t like to cry.
“Basically, Denethor and Finduilas have to teach Aragorn some things in order for him to be a decent king. (Presumably their son fills in the rest.) ”
So, this is a disturbingly ambiguous summary. PORN OR NOT?
Bwahahahaha! There probably is a story somewhere out there with this general gist that IS porn…
In case anyone actually wants to know: on the whole, it’s not porn, it’s very detailed and intricate Denethor + Finduilas. (Although there are some fantastic sex scenes, which can be kiiiind of creepy… well maybe a lot creepy… but in a good way?… I’ll just stop now).
It’s a great job title, but I’m still holding out for “Witch-king of the Internet”
Oooh, I dunno… sounds cool, but wouldn’t you be worried about prophesies of unexpected weakness?
Ok, but really? I would 100% pick Rohan over Gondor, smelly horses and all.
Almost as ridiculous as Henry VII claiming the crown because his grandfather was the bastard half-brother of the man who usurped it from Richard II
Henry VII did make a sensible decision to marry Elizabeth of York, the eldest daughter of a deceased king who had a far better claim to the throne than Henry did himself. Aragorn should have married Lothiriel, only daughter of Gondor’s Numenorean-descended prince Imrahil. But he would not, since he’d been in love with elf-princess Arwen for 60+ years…
But wait, there’s more:
Per the finale of ROTK: proof of Aragorn’s legitimacy is the fecundity of the land in the season following his coronation. (Fertility of land = good kingship is an ancient test of legitimacy that Tolkien applies in LOTR.)
“Aye, it’s… a bit hard to swallow, the notion that a Northern wayfarer could claim the crown after thousands o’ years. Still, how do you explain the crops this year? We’ve never seen the like, and that’s flat. The land’s healing itself; things are growing again, faster than ever. Surely that proves he’s the true king.”
“Well, I wouldn’t speak out against the true king, of course. But just between us farmers, another thing that makes things grow is bullshit.”
–conversation overheard at the Green Dragon Inn, recorded in the Red Book of Westmarch, then later erased and overwritten by a list of riddles and a picture of a spider
AAAAAAAAAH <3
Snurk! Yes!
Isn’t the fertilitity of land in the Shire, at least, a result of Galadriel’s gift to Sam? Or is it just Aragorn’s influence spreading northwards?
Pulls up chair.
Sits down.
HERE FOR THIS.
at least we our royal succession policies aren’t completely batshit
I live in a monarchy and yes, yes, they are. That is pretty much the point of monarchies.
Aragorn is their new ruler because no one else wants the stinking job excepting an evil eye. Besides he has a resurrected wizard on his side. What Gandalf wants, Gandalf gets!
OBJECTION. Several of them, actually. This is really quite embarrassingly one-sided.
Aragon’s claim to the kingship of Gondor (of the two kingdoms, really, though there was no more Arnor) wasn’t based on his descent from Isildur, except indirectly, but on his descent from Elros (brother of Elrond and son of Earendil, middle-earth’s messiah). In other words, he was not king of a particular geography called Gondor, he was king of the Dunedain as a race as the sole surviving linear descendant of the tribal leader.
Moreover, although it’s correct that Numenor was sunk in the ocean by Eru, the reason Aragorn’s ancestors survived was because they repudiated the Great Treason of Ar-Pharazon and remained loyal to the Valar. Elendil first heroically rescued a sprig of the white tree from Numenor before the fallen Numenoreans burned the rest of the tree, and then when the armada of the Numenoreans sailed westward to invade Valinor, Elendil and his family instead fled to the east and founded kingdoms in Middle-Earth; they weren’t dishonored by the treason of their kin.
Contrary to what’s alleged here, the steward and the council rejected the claim of Arvedui the Unlucky because it was through the female line (in keeping with classic primogeniture), not because the blood-kinship between the houses of Isildur and Anarion was completely invalid. The situation is similar to that of England and Scotland, where the same person could legitimately fall heir to both crowns at once, and did. Moreover, according the prophecy made about Arvedui in childhood, the council erred in rejecting him.
As for “bereft of lordship,” Aragorn was raised in Rivendell by Elrond (his very-many-times great uncle) in conditions of lordship at least equal to those of Minas Tirith, whose rulers had been steadily losing territory to the orcs (without, be it noted, even the benefit of Sauron’s direct involvement) for generations.
Lastly, although you’d never know it from the movie, the Army of the Dead was not involved in the Battle of Pelennor. Their only contribution in the books was in the capture of the Black Fleet at Umbar, which simultaneously removed the Corsairs of Umbar as a strategic threat to Gondor’s populous coast, and allowed their ships to be used to transport reinforcements from those allies upriver to participate in the battle (this is reminiscent of the logistical miracle surrounding the Battle of Moscow and the transportation of three quarters of a million men across Siberia to intervene).
Other quibbles aren’t worth mentioning, but the only credibility this article really destroys is the author’s own.
Marry me.
THIS. THANK YOU.
If I had to nominate just one post in this comment section for being written by Stephen Colbert under an alias, this would be it.
Except the Numenoreans recognized the legitimacy of female rulers. Or was the thing with Arvedui a one-off?
Agree on the base of his kingship’s claim . You have a very valid point.
But let me to object to the one objection. 🙂
“As for “bereft of lordship,” Aragorn was raised in Rivendell by Elrond (his very-many-times great uncle) in conditions of lordship at least equal to those of Minas Tirith,”
Aragorn was not brought up sheltered, because by the young age of 20 he returned to Rivendell ALREADY have been done “a great deeds”, which is , considering the situation in Eriador, could be no other than an active participation in a BIG fights with orcs or other enemies.
Elrond does not strike me as being ignorant or completely stupid not to understand that such arrangement is a sure thing to lose the last heir of Isildur. What the point to protect him till puberty and then to send on a slaying mission, where he could be easily killed, as it has happened to his father?
Such arrangement could be acceptable under the only one condition: the line of Isildur can continue by the next of kin. In this light I see no reason to make an exception to Aragorn, and I suspect there was none. He was treated like all others Isildur’s heirs. “In that house were harbored the Heirs of Isildur, in childhood and old age.” That means that over 1000 years, considering their long living and the probability that some of the Chieftains had not had only one offspring, the house was quite full with all kind of members of the royal family, which makes likely not to guess who is who. How come Aragorn did not have any ideas who he is till his 20 ?
Because all of them were treated by Elrond equally as nobody, the descendants of Arnor’s kings without kingdom, who had been brought up in loyalty to the Elves during the time of their decline. They all had been raised not as future lords, but as an assembly of very well trained, experienced in combat and grateful to the elves numenorian’s descendants .
But ‘bereft of lordship’ doesn’t mean ‘not brought up in a lordly style in a grand household’: it means ‘not having the authority and power of a lord’. The descendants of Elendil in the North not only don’t even let it be publicly known that they exist, but they can’t keep their own infant prince safe and have to have him fostered in secret in Rivendell under an assumed name. That’s about as bereft of lordship as you can get.
OBJECTION. Several of them, actually. This is really quite embarrassingly one-sided.
Aragon’s claim to the kingship of Gondor (of the two kingdoms, really, though there was no more Arnor) wasn’t based on his descent from Isildur, except indirectly, but on his descent from Elros (brother of Elrond and son of Earendil, middle-earth’s messiah). In other words, he was not king of a particular geography called Gondor, he was king of the Dunedain as a race as the sole surviving linear descendant of the tribal leader.
Moreover, although it’s correct that Numenor was sunk in the ocean by Eru, the reason Aragorn’s ancestors survived was because they repudiated the Great Treason of Ar-Pharazon and remained loyal to the Valar. Elendil first heroically rescued a sprig of the white tree from Numenor before the fallen Numenoreans burned the rest of the tree, and then when the armada of the Numenoreans sailed westward to invade Valinor, Elendil and his family instead fled to the east and founded kingdoms in Middle-Earth; they weren’t dishonored by the treason of their kin.
Contrary to what’s alleged here, the steward and the council rejected the claim of Arvedui the Unlucky because it was through the female line (in keeping with classic primogeniture), not because the blood-kinship between the houses of Isildur and Anarion was completely invalid. The situation is similar to that of England and Scotland, where the same person could legitimately fall heir to both crowns at once, and did. Moreover, according the prophecy made about Arvedui in childhood, the council erred in rejecting him.
Continued…
The social and technological stagnation of Middle Earth is a little bit terrifying to think about (I try never to do that). You’re not just trying to rule Egypt based on a 3,000 year old claim, you’re walking in with a bronze khopesh and trying to pass it off as still being state of the art weaponry.
Fortunately, supreme executive power derives fro a mandate from the masses, and Aragorn certainly had that by the end.
God, I hope someone sends this to Stephen Colbert.
“The closest real-world parallel” is pretty different from Gondor, which was still intact as a political entity and had the core of its legislation and identity unchanged for the three millenia… so comparison is pretty forced.
Every day I am reminded that I have discovered The Best Place On The Internet.
You people are complete nerds and I love it.
Can I say, I love the “See Middle Earth” poster? Is there any chance Monsieur Longo will do an ownable version of that, possibly as part of a series?
“at least our royal succession policies aren’t completely batshit”
They totally are: just because they adhere to some arbitrary rules doesn’t make them any less batshit.
It’s always bothered me that turkey Elessar made a law that kept the big folk out of the Shire after reconstituting Arnor. I mean, did he build a bypass around it so you could get to the Grey Havens? I’m sure the merchants appreciated the extra 500 mile journey just so yokels could live on a reservation. Faramir for President sounds good to me.
The Hanoverian succession was legitimate.
When the line descended from Charles I died out with Queen Anne, the throne was taken by the line of his sister, Elizabeth (Queen of Hearts / Winter Queen of Bohemia) in the person of her grandson, George I – A great-grandson of James VI/I and descendant of Robert I (Himself a fourth great-grandson of David I (Son of Malcolm III Canmore). Her Grace Elizabeth (or Elizabeth II) is a 19th great-granddaughter of Robert I.
While it’s true that there were many other candidates, all refused to renounce their Roman Catholic faith (a liability in the Head of the Church of England).
Aragorn’s succession is no worse than many in the real world, and he didn’t get it by being born on the wrong side of the blanket, leading a foreign army in to butcher his subjects, and murdering two legitimate kings to do so (Yes, I’m looking at you, Malcolm III – Shakespeare has a lot to answer for).
The true King is the one who gets crowned.
Aragorn’s rights for the Crown of Gondor kings was approved by highest possible witness and authority in one being – by Gandalf the White, who wasn’t a Man, with desire of power, nor an Elf, with bigger but limited knowledge of Arda. Gandalf was Maia, sent by Manwe. If we put in mind allegory of author of this essay, if Zeus would send Apollo to modern Turkey to approve somebody’s rights for throne of Darius or even His Fucking Majesty Erdogan – this approval will have an effect!
Interesting post, but not entirely true. This seems to be written by a fan who has access to a wikipedia, but did not fully understand the full history of Middle Earth!
Aragorn is the true heir to both realms of Arnor/Gondor, as his ancestor (eldest son Isildur) was, as his father actually was (Elendil). This was indirectly ordained by Illuvatar, the omnipotent “God” of Arda.
First of all, Isildur was the eldest son of Elendil, who was part of the sect of Numenoreans that still followed Illuvatar/Valar/friendly with the Eldar. This sect is the Lords of Anduine, whose history began when one of the earliest Numenorean Kings couldn’t let his eldest child, Silmarien, rule because the laws forbade kingship for a woman. He, however, gave her the relics of nobility (Ring of Barahir [One of the eldest relics of middle earth, minus maybe the Palintir]) and made her son the first Lord of Andunie. Therefore the line of Lords of Anduine has a direct lineage to Elros (Son of Earendil, part Human/Elf/Maiar, brother to Elrond, first King of Numenor).
Key point: Arguably, one can say the Lord of Anduine is the true lineage, as this follows the eldest child = heir opposed to eldest son.
Near the end of the Second Age and at the cusp of the corruption of Numenor, Elendil was rescued/spared by the Valar from the destruction of Numenor (which was strongly influenced by Sauron). Being the only direct descendant of Elros, Elendil was named King of the Exiled Numenoreans and founded the realms of Gondor AND Arnor on Middle Earth. Because Illuvatar directly intervened with the destruction of Numenor (Illuvatar RARELY ‘acts’ in all four ages), one can say it was with his blessing that Elendil survived. The Edain (humans) are also said to be the favorite child of Illuvatar (between Elves and Men), meaning that Illuvatar CHOSE to save Elendil as the last descendent of the Kings of the greatest race of men (the Black Numenoreans/Corsairs, the Naval colony already on Middle Earth, do not count as they are not royalty).
Elendil’s (pre-Last Alliance) REALM was in Arnor, while his two sons Isildur ruled respective cities in Gondor. Isildur founded Minas Ithil (later Minas Morgul) and his younger son Anarion founded Minas Anor (later Minas Tirith) with the capital being Osgiliath. Even though Elendil was the crowned king of both realms, he remained in Arnor, which indirectly makes Arnor the realm of the High King (both Arnor/Gondor). After the War of the Ring, the death of both Elendil and Anarion solidified Isildur’s claim (Firstborn and only living son) as the High King. However, as we all know, Isildur was killed on the way to Arnor, never finalizing being crowned the High King of both realms.
At this critical point, the realms of Arnor and Gondor were split and the descendants of Anarion ruled Gondor while the descendants of Isildur ruled Arnor. If Isildur had made it safely to Arnor and been crowned King, the two realms would’ve remained intact. Hypothetically, Isildur’s line (which Aragorn is a direct descendant of) is heir to both realms.
Therefore, Aragorn does indeed have rights as the heir of both realms and arguably has more of a claim to both realms as the Chieftan of the Dunedain than if the King of Gondor tried to claim kingship over Arnor. In the end, Aragorn was a chess piece orchestrated by Illuvatar to conquer Sauron and claim peace over Middle Earth.
I’ll end with my favorite quote in all of Tolkien’s writing:
“And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.”
I maintain that Aragorn was a puppet, raised to kingship by a truce between Faramir and Prince Imrahil. They both had solid followings and areas of influence and after the deaths of Boromir and Denethor there was no obvious alternative. However, in the fragile political situation both were canny enough to realise that a civil war was too risky. Hence the Prince of Dol Amroth and the Steward / new Prince of Ithilien found some figurehead to be nominally in charge while they divided Gondor into two spheres of influence. Presumably the following decades were a game of tense marriage politics as each faction attempted to splice itself into the royal family tree before the other could.
I have been upset about my confusion over this for years. I mean, in an appropriately lowkey way, okay?
The problem with you monarchial legitimists is that you forget that a dynasty can gain and lose the Mandate of Heaven/Favor of the God(s).
Claims are all well and good, but they didn’t help Bonnie Prince Charlie. Or Stannis Baratheon.
Dynasties are built by claims, but also by heroic deeds and the exercise of actual power. see William the Conqueror: Claim to the English throne dubious, but victory at Hastings and being prepared to forcefully exercise his rights made all the difference. Henry Tudor, same thing.
Hence, the reality of actual power causes that churn of legitimacy we call the dynastic cycle. Aragorn’s claim doesn’t mean anything on its own, and didn’t for the 87 years of his life before the War of the Ring. But, his heroic leadership in that war, and the deference (as mentioned by others) by Faramir and Imrahil paid to him, created a condition where the exercise of real power made the claim good enough for government work.
That said, excellent post.
Add Æthelwold ætheling to that list. By strict primogeniture laws, he should have been king after his father Æthelred I died in battle against the Vikings in 871. Given that he was a little boy at the time, he would’ve easily been defeated by the Vikings and we’d all be speaking Danish or Norse right now. Instead the Witan (a sort of king’s council that sort of elected the new king from immediate male relatives, sort of) chose Alfred, who you may recognize as The Greatest King Who Ever Kinged. So yeah, strict primogeniture? Not at all what it’s cracked up to be.
Don’t forget, Aragorn’s first act upon executing his tenuous claim to a long-separated throne – marry a foreigner! This surely helped. 😉
This is a great article, but my nerdiness had to correct an error – the Numenorians were tricked into attacking the undying lands by Sauron himself, not by Melkor.
Right, but as the article says, they worshipped Melkor as God. Sauron was the high priest.
This is seriously one of the best things I’ve ever read
Aragon was a beloved war leader (as Thorongil) who used a ghost army to liberate Pelargir and then sailed to Minas Tirith’s rescue with troops from Gondor’s various provinces, saving both the Rohirrim and the Men of the City from certain doom while wielding the reforged blade of Elendil and carrying multiple tokens of favor, including a jeweled banner bearing the ancient arms of the High King, made for him by the niece of the first King of Numenor. There he was welcomed by Prince Imrahil, whom he likely knew long ago, and Eomer, a boon companion and newly made King of Rohan, and most importantly Mithrandir, the closest thing to an angel that Gondor has known, who vouches for his lineage and the favor of Elves and Men alike. And despite descent from the lines of both Arnor and Gondor, through Arvedui and Firiel, he refuses to enter the city as a conquering King. Instead he enters in secret, simply to heal the injured with miraculous powers foretold by prophecy, restoring both the son of the late Steward and the sister of Rohan’s King, as well as many folk of the city. He then leads the armies of the west on a desperate campaign to the Black Gate of Mordor itself, facing almost certain death in order to distract Sauron from the real threat. This ends in the eucatastrophic defeat of the a Dark Lord and all his works, which a giant talking damn eagle flies to Minas Tirith TO SING ABOUT. He then shows mercy to the realm’s enemies in exchange for their friendship and returns to the city, where another friend, Angbor, has almost certainly been talking him up. And he brings with him the hobbits who were involved in the destruction of Isildur’s Bane. He’s also demonstrably of superhuman blood, given his age.
So he’s got a bit going for him. This isn’t just some dude who shows up in Ankara saying his great^47-grandmother once boned Xerxes. This is the spitting image of Jesus with ties to Caesar and Odysseus winning World War I and defeating Satan with the help of the archangel Gabriel, healing the sick along the way, and commanding a ghost army besides, all the while wielding the actual Excalibur. Oh, and Faramir dreamed of his coming, and is heir to a line that swore to return the realm to the true king when he popped by.
This sort of argument is what led to the Kin-strife, and I will not stand for it. Elfstone for life.
Holy Smokes what a fantastic thread. I’m amongst those who are amazed and somewhat terrified that with in both LoTR and Potter, the default assumption seems to be that utter unchangingness is the best state of things. So the 3000 year gap is indeed a ridiculous problem but as has been pointed out in the last few posts, Aragorn’s actions in successfully leading the campaign combined with the endorsement of the Immortal Establishment (if you have one of the three rings you may be one) gives as much legitimacy as is needed to be king. And it’s very true that there have always been mechanisms to get the right king when needed as in cowshark’s post above about Alfred. There are these Japanese hotels that in some cases are supposed to have been in the same family for 800 years. But then you read that when they appoint a general manager he technically becomes a son, so the family line continues.
Which brings me to the matter of why Kylo Ren is one of the most fascinating characters of right now. I have been involved in several projects recently involving mid sized companies where the son has clearly recently taken over from the retiring older generation and he clearly hasn’t got it. And in several cases you actually meet the foreman/manager who should have run the thing but can’t because he’s not the son. Kylo Ren, the grandson, doesn’t have it and General Hux, force notwithstanding, probably does. I would go as far as to say that Star Wars’ intelligent examination of the failure of a chosen one may actually make up for the execrable physics. I guess we’ll see.
Doe it’s legitimacy matter? Hmmm . . . what really matters is that it’s *accepted* as legitimate.
AND ON THAT NOTE:
Has anyone ever wondered wtf everyone eats in Gondor and Rohan, particularly in the movie-verse? They have no farms, no coast, no local non-homicidal forests, no nearby neighbours to trade with. I suppose in Rohan it’s possible that they eat horses as well as ride them, but what do they do in Minas Tirith?
But there are farms in Gondor. The Pelennor fields are clearly described as fertile and intensively-tilled farmlands, and Lossarnach had famous orchards. There was also a major fishing industry at the Mouths of Anduin.
Highly amusing! And right!
Tolkien’s notions of ‘divine right of kings’ don’t bear much scrutiny. And he was a sympathiser re: Franco’s clericofascist regime in Spain. Aragorn’s first appearance (when he still envisaged him as a Hobbit-esque character called ‘Trotter’) was partly inspired by his friend and fellow-Francoist, the poet Roy Campbell.
“The Shire is bucolic and lovely, but it’s also populated by xenophobic yokels” – most of whom have low social status and a standard of living.
Like the rural poor of Edwardian England, they live in picturesque but squalid, damp and uncomfortable hovels; there’s a desperately telling bit after the Scouring of the Shire where the civic housing built by Saruman is torn down, on account of having been made of ‘ugly pale bricks badly laid’, and the bricks used to ‘repair many an old hole, to make it snugger and drier’, and Bagshot Row has to be completely rebuilt from scratch, which Gaffer Gamgee hails as a vast improvement – he doesn’t hanker after his old home at all. From which we realise that for many hobbits their home may very well indeed be precisely what Tolkien in the opening paragraph of The Hobbit said that a hobbit-hole wasn’t: ‘a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with … an oozy smell’.
In the Shire, a hobbit hole ‘means comfort’ only if you have plenty of inherited wealth. If you haven’t, evidently you can expect your hole to be damp and draughty, and it will not occur to the rich hobbits for whom you work and to whom you touch your forehead to pay you enough that you can afford to make it damp-proof. If some passing villain doesn’t leave behind a pile of bricks that the well-off hobbits think too ugly to use anywhere they can be seen, and therefore charitably allot for the use of the poor, your home is going to be leaky and cold for ever and ever, amen. No wonder poor hobbits spend so much time in pubs; like the Edwardian poor, the pub is just so much warmer and more comfortable than their homes.
Ah, Saruman’s civic housing… Tolkien having a dig at post-war council housing. Yes, some of it wasn’t great aesthetically, but it was a step up, especially in cities like the one in which I grew up, most of which had been pancaked by the Luftwaffe. it was in an ‘ugly pale brick’ council house, when I was about 7, that we first got running hot water and an indoor toilet, and that about 25 years after the war.
And in a rural context, Tolkien clearly had no idea of the reality of the life of agricultural labourers.
Or else he had, and felt it absolutely right and proper. What’s the good of being a gentlehobbit if your gardener has sanitary facilities as good as your own? He might even give up touching his forelock to you, and demand a living wage!
I think that’s actually canon, more or less. If I remember the notes in LotR correctly, most hobbits actually live in houses. Historically, they all lived in holes, but as of the time of the story, only the very rich and the very poor do. (With the rich in big, fancy, well-furnished holes like Bag End, and the poor in basically just a hole).
This really solidifies my vague discontent with Tolkien society.
Hello!
I think there are some good points here, but there are also some problems.
Let's start off with the positive:
– Correct, Aragorn's claim comes through Isildur's line, which is very old.
– HOWEVER… Gondor retained the same political system during that entire time, during which the Line of Stewards explicitly ruled "in the place of" the rightful rulers, i.e. the children of Elendil.
Note that Elendil is part of a group of Men that LEFT Numenor before the Fall, which was basically allowing Sauron to destroy the place.
Therefore, given the stability of Gondor's political institutions, it makes perfect sense to bring the Stewardship of Gondor to an end, and revert to the Kingship of the line of Elendil, last Lord of Anduine, through Isildur's heir, Aragorn.
Exactly! Aragorn has never learned how to run a country. What is likely to happen is that Faramir will have to do everything while he gets no credit other than “blah blah our loyal servant blah”. It’s a good thing he’s a pure cinnamon roll because otherwise Aragorn would have to face problems a bit later.
If the argument over Arvedui’s marriage as an illegitimate claim is valid, then Elendil’s claim is also illegitimate, because his lineage as a Numenorian has the same twist in it. If Aragorn had no claim to the throne of Gondor, no Numenorian surviving the deluge did either. The kingdoms themselves are illegitimate.