John Hawkes, you’ve been around for a long time but are perhaps most well known for your roles in Deadwood and Winter’s Bone. Why didn’t you tell me you were on the episode of Buffy where the teen murder sex ghost possesses her and Angel?
John Hawkes, do you think Spike’s character arc was an interesting chart of slow but progressive redemption, or a waste of a perfectly interesting villain?
John Hawkes, Joss Whedon has reportedly said that “I Only Have Eyes For You” was the episode where he realized David Boreanaz was a strong enough actor to pull off his own series. Why would he say that? Why would anyone ever say that?
John Hawkes, at one point in your turn on Buffy The Vampire Slayer you shoot one of the teachers while suffering absolutely zero consequences (admittedly while under the thrall of Ghost James, who would later go on to play Harrison on Popular, who was basically Xander but that’s an argument for another time). I realize that Sunnydale has a fairly relaxed judicial system, but shouldn’t they have arrested you?
John Hawkes, what was it like filming on Buffy while you were a teeny tiny baby? You are clearly seven in this screenshot. Were you nervous, being seven? Also: why did you look a little bit like Ryan Atwood from The O.C.? Why would you do that?
Award-winning The Sessions star John Hawkes, in “Becoming: Part 2,” Spike tells Buffy, “We like to talk big, vampires do. ‘I’m going to destroy the world.’ It’s just tough guy talk. Struttin’ around with your friends over a pint of blood. The truth is, I like this world. You’ve got dog racing, Manchester United, and you’ve got people. Billions of people walking around like Happy Meals with legs. It’s all right here,” when he attempts to get her to team up with him to fight Angel before he summons Acathla and destroys the world. Yet not eight episodes previous, Spike and Drusilla reassemble the Judge, a demon “brought forth to rid the earth of the plague of humanity. To separate the righteous from the wicked and burn the righteous down.” [Extremely The Simpsons voice] Boy, I sure hope somebody got fired for that blunder.
John Hawkes, look at how little you are! Okay?
John Hawkes, you’ve worked with Helen Hunt, Daniel Day-Lewis, Jennifer Lawrence, and Ian McShane. Given that Joss Whedon drives so many of us crazy so much of the time, why can’t I stop watching old episodes of Buffy on Netflix at 2 in the morning, 18 years later?
Should I really watch Angel? Two people I normally listen to have both told me it’s better than Buffy, but I can’t quite bring myself to believe them. It stars Angel, you know? And that awful girl from Serenity is a dancer in it, and I don’t like the clips of Fred I’ve seen on YouTube, and I hated Wesley on Buffy and also was never crazy about Cordelia so why am I supposed to want to watch a show where they all work at a law firm, and also Pete from Mad Men was on it, right? Connor? And everyone hated that. Is it really that good? Please bear in mind that I did not hate “Doublemeat Palace,” if that’s helpful in determining whether or not I should watch it. Thank you for your time.
Tags: buffy the vampire slayer, john hawkes, questions, television
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If it helps, Angel as portrayed on Angel is a weird, socially awkward grumpus rather than the swoony heartthrob (?) he was supposed to be on Buffy. I prefer Angel to Buffy (especially Season 2). And if anyone wants to tell me that Buffy is Angel’s soulmate, I will fight them, because it is clearly Darla.
Or Lindsey.
Wait, is Lindsey cute? I asked this on Twitter and I’m not sure if he’s cute or if I’m easily distracted/swayed by dudes with floppy, 90s hair.
I say cute, especially with his season 2 hair.
I find him significantly less attractive with longer hair. I know Christian Kane has long hair on other things (like Leverage) and people seem to like it, but I just don’t understand!
I have very strong feelings about Christian Kane’s hair and stylists’ complete inability to manage it. Everytime they get it right for a couple of episodes it falls apart and someone attacks it with a straightener and just no.
It has to either be short or long. There is a middle length that he attempts sometimes (season 5 Angel) and it is awful.
Season 2 of Leverage hair was peak Christian Kane hair. It was long and flouncy, there were multiple appearances of the half ponytail WITH damp sweaty curls, and little beaded braids started appearing for reasons that were never explained. I live for Season 2 Christian Kane hair.
He has cut it short again for The Librarians, and I do have to say, it looks good. But where are the inexplicable braids?
Season 2 hair is amazing. You’d think layers like that would look ridiculous on a manly fighter manly man, but oh, they really don’t.
She says, two days late, because this week has been lousy enough that it even cut into her valued Toast time.
It is never too late to talk about season 2 Christian Kane hair. Never. If I wasn’t at work on my phone I would be spamming with example pictures so hard.
Although Hannibal is on, so nothing else currently exists, not even Christian Kane and his luscious, glorious hair.
He’s cute and you should watch Leverage.
Only ’90s goggles could make Lindsey seem like a heartthrob. I watched the show for the first time in like, 2012 or something and I found it so confusing that people acted like he was a babe and Doyle was some kind of ugly nerd when he was actually super cute.
Oh Doyle. <3
Yeah, once they realized that Boreanaz could not actually carry a show by being brooding and mopey all the time (which was somewhere around the beginning of Season 2, I think), it got really fun. Plus Cordelia is delightful and Wesley got a really solid character arc.
Also, there is that one episode where Angel turns into a WEE LITTLE PUPPET MAN.
I may or may not own the Angel puppet
WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
well not THE Angel puppet, but a v v official replica puppet. It pleases me.
EXTREME JEALOUSY! Also, pictures please. This is amazing.
I had forgotten about puppet Angel! That is a great episode.
Yeah, I find awkward/grumpy/dorky dad Angel a thousands times more likeable than faux-Byronic “heartthrob” Angel.
The time when he’s the only one to have watched Gunsmoke! The time when he sings Mandy!
Okay, lots of times. Lots of them.
Mallory, I’ve started watching Angel at the gym and while a lot of season one was questionable, it gets really good in the last five episodes and now I’m all in and start season two today.
OKAY this answers the question i had, because i remember watching the first season-ish & remember it being…not good. but then people apparently liked it? maybe it is worth a try.
…after i finish rewatching sailor moon.
I remember Angel as a pretty enjoyable show, and if you like Buffy I would say to give it a shot. It’s got some nice moments, a smattering of awesome episodes (none of which I want to spoil), and the final season is pretty much distilled “we know we’re getting cancelled at the end of this, so let’s blow every remaining plot point along with the entire budget”.
Which awful girl from Firefly? If it’s Kaylee (or almost any of the others, really), we may have to fight.
River!
Oh, right, carry on then.
I don’t even remember River being in Angel, so she must have had a really small part, if that helps.
She was just in one episode and barely even had any lines.
I think she was only in one episode, where she played a ballerina and didn’t talk all that much.
OH right, I do remember that. Yeah, that was a throwaway role, Mallory. That shouldn’t be what stops you.
It’s true. Summer Glau is not a good actress, although she does have an interesting face and moves well. NO FIGHTING.
Those qualities made her an excellent terminator.
There is a place for everyone!
The. Fucking. Worst.
Yeah, I’m going to have to disagree with you here.
I agree, she seems pretty fun and great. Excellent PFT gif, BTW!
River.
I believe she’s referring to Summer Glau. I’d likewise be hesitant to call anyone from the cast, outside of Adam Baldwin, awful.
fucking Adam Baldwin, ugh
Wait, is this a thing now? Adam Baldwin is one of my faves on the show.
Adam Baldwin is the guy who coined the term GamerGate. It’s more that he’s awful in real life than he is on the show. (I mean, Jayne is an awful person, but the show knows that and plays with it.)
Kaylee has a lot of charm and I like her but she is 100 percent a moral monster and additionally a creeper who can’t take no for an answer to a sexual proposition, or indeed for twenty repeated propositions
like the very worst of that show aside from SPACE WHORES was when the whole cast would get together to cast disapproving looks and reproving words at Simon for having the gall to express romantic disinterest in Kaylee for the wholly inadequate reason that he had no romantic interest in her. how dare he, et cetera. it’s nice and everything that Joss decided to paste the worst parts of Xander onto a woman, it has some novelty value I guess, but in some ways I preferred Xander’s conscious nastiness to Kaylee’s gawping naivete. they both lay over the same yawning pit of sexual entitlement though.
You should watch Angel. It’s really good even when parts are infuriating.
Wesley and Cordelia are both way better in Angel than they were in Buffy. And it can be fun to watch the episodes interwoven (several season overlapped. You might as well give it a shot – at the very least it enlarges your Buffy-watching possibilities.
But mostly – 18 years ago??? Oh god I am so old. I had no idea how old I was until just now.
Disagree. Wesley and Cordelia were FUNNY on Buffy.
“Angel” is pretty terrible and makes no sense, but I like anyway. It is slightly better than “Charmed,” every episode of which I have also seen, to my shame.
Cordelia’s horrible character arc into weird saint/love interest/heart of the show is the top of my “Angel is Worse than Buffy” list. She is hilarious and interesting on Buffy. On Angel, she just becomes a lady onto which a Chosen Dude can project feelings.
That said, I sort of like Angel. It is fun sometimes (especially the last “we give no fucks” season) but I think BtVS is ultimately much better.
They were funny on Angel too (at times)! The scene with them roleplaying Buffy and Angel to explain Angel’s relationship history to Fred is pretty great.
All those points are valid except the one about Summer Glau; nonetheless, Angel is great.
Angel is not better than Buffy. That is a filthy lie, and part of it is because David Boreanaz has an affliction called “stupidface”, where he cannot pull off brooding and only manages to look slightly constipated. (See Kit Harrington for a more recent example of this phenomena.) By season 5, they’ve figured out that Boreanaz is much better at carrying light comedy, and Spike is there for him to play off.
Season 1 is terrible, season 2-4 have an interesting serialized plot and some very good characters (Wesley becomes much better than he ever was on Buffy, Cordelia goes back and forth), season 5 is somewhere between being a workplace comedy and a horror show and is my favorite (and is the only season I ever rewatch), but there’s never any kind of overarching metaphor that connects the way Buffy does.
Also, Summer Glau has a very minor role in one episode, so do not let that make or break you.
He DOES have a terminal case of stupidface!
Aw man, Kit Harrington has got the worst stupidface. It’s like every shot in Game of Thrones he’s quiety saying, “duhhh?” to himself.
I have a theory that when the main emotion an actor is given to portray is “brooding,” it becomes REALLY easy to slip into stupidface. Whenever either Angel or Jon Snow actually get to smile or look excited about something–which moments are few and far between–I’m like, “OH, hi, there you are, that must be why people like you!”
yeah, and I think a lot of the problem is that maybe this stuff doesn’t really come up in auditions. At a reading, maybe you’re giving an actor a bunch of different really intense emotive stuff to do, maybe you don’t realize how dopey they look in “neutral”.
I’ve never noticed any of Kit Harrington’s facial expressions, I just assumed his hair was doing the acting for him.
Y’know who broods well? Peter Dinklage. That man can pull off “emotionally tormented by deep thoughts and also not constipated or partially lobotomized” really well.
Season 5 is worth it if only for Smile Time, where they take FULL advantage of Boreanaz’s stupidface.
I DO NOT HAVE PUPPET CANCER
This is a 100% correct assessment of Angel, I endorse it fully. It is not better than Buffy and I will never understand why some people say so.
There are some terrific moments in Angel for which I’m glad I watched the whole thing, but much of it was a real slog.
Gina Torres getting a chance to play the goddess that she is covers a multitude of sins, though.
That last paragraph was my whole reason for quitting watching Angel while it was on the air. I watched the first half of the first season, and then I quit. Every time I tried coming back, I was like “Nope! This makes no sense!” I keep it in my Netflix queue, thinking I’ll return…but it hasn’t happened yet.
Angel is better than Buffy, thanks.
Also, John Hawkes is in an episode of The X-Files (Milagro) that’s borderline unacceptable. Scully does a lot of extremely out-of-character things and everyone else is like “WTF Scully” and she’s like “I’m just being me, guys.”
That’s why he looked so familiar!
I didn’t get very far into Deadwood, but there are at least three actors from the X-Files in season 1 of Deadwood.
OH GOD THAT X-FILES EPISODE. It filled me with a white-hot rage I can barely express. SO OUT OF CHARACTER. A MAN being able to control SCULLY with his words that he is writing? I think not.
John Hawkes is so gross and slimy in that episode I cannot stand it.
David Boreanaz acts like an animated plank of wood.
Also, John Hawkes as Juror Number 8 in “12 Angry Men Inside Amy Schumer” is my favorite John Hawkes.
THE DILDO
“So do you just carry that around wherever you go, in case a dildo-based argument breaks out?”
I just scanned this and only read the first line of your initial post so I was like ‘the… dil… I mean sure I guess that makes sense…’
If you did not hate Doublemeat Palace, Angel was built for you. The first season tries to be noir and deep, and then they realize that Boreanez is a giant meathead and they start to make fun of him and he’s in on the joke and it’s glorious and good. THOUGH Angsty Wesley is THE WORST and the whole Conner thing is just wow really but on the whole it is such fun, many soap opera, yay.
“really wow” is the best way i’ve ever heard to describe that entire plot line with connor. like. what?
Interestingly, Doge as a response to a thing makes me immediately invested in investigating that thing. I can’t explain myself.
I was like, who’s the Serenity girl who was a dancer? Gina Torres was a demon/goddess/person. I’m going through the other Serenity women. Her, no…her, no. It took me a while. But yes! River was a Russian ballet dancer in one obscure episode. THAT is one heck of an obscure Angel reference. Well played.
I didn’t like Angel, really. I watched all of it, I’ve probably seen every episode multiple times, and I can swap obscure Angel references with the best of them. But it’s really just meh. It’s kinda hilariously meh….
Cordelia and Wesley totally changed in Angel. They’re almost different people….
I only got through a handful of Man Men episodes. I think it was because I kept seeing Connor instead of Pete. 🙂
My friends and I have an elaborate head canon in which Pete IS Connor–the Campbells are the family he was placed with, obviously. Thus making the entire show better, because while everyone has drama over Don’s secret identity, Pete’s secret identity is a secret even from himself. Also, this means that the Mad Men verse has vampires.
Endorsed.
It got quite complex. Joan is a vengeance demon, Don would be the same as a vampire as he is as a human (only he kills the girls after he sleeps with them), Betty would be an even worse vampire than she is a human (and she’d have a small army of like 8 Bobbies and Genes to be her minions), Don and Betty have a love/hate relationship that leaves bodies strewn across NYC from time to time, Henry will continue to let Betty suck him dry (only literally now), etc.
O_o
I feel like there is almost no chance Vincent Kartheiser isn’t a terrible person. I know this is unfair of me, but how could anyone with a scrap of decency or humanity have built their career on playing Connor and Pete Campbell??
And if he did start out a good person, I can only assume those two roles broke him completely and he’s now just a shattered shell of what he once was.
I feel like he can’t be beyond hope, just for being in ‘The Hairy Bird’, a legitimately perfect film.
But Connor is soul-suckingly awful. (Watching the DVD extras, they had a sample script Kartheiser auditioned with, and Connor was even worse initially, which is frankly chilling.)
I worked with him when he was back home in Minneapolis doing “Pride and Prejudice” at the Guthrie and he was honestly just lovely. Quiet and a teeny bit odd but he was just so down to earth and nice to everyone.
I don’t understand anyone saying Angel is better than Buffy. I don’t understand you people and I never will. Having said that, Angel is worthwhile but not required viewing, IMHO.
You should totally watch Angel, which is a show that took Buffy’s idea of “cute blonde saves the world” and thought “but WHAT IF we went back to hot guy saving women, what do you think?”, foretelling pretty much everything Joss Whedon has done since.
Some of it was good, Wesley was actually the most interesting part of Angel, and the series finale was great, but I would never rewatch a single episode.
John Hawkes, at one point in your turn on Buffy The Vampire Slayer you shoot one of the teachers while suffering absolutely zero consequences (admittedly while under the thrall of Ghost James, who would later go on to play Harrison on Popular, who was basically Xander but that’s an argument for another time). I realize that Sunnydale has a fairly relaxed judicial system, but shouldn’t they have arrested you?
Didn’t the gun disappear? I mean, there was still a person who had been shot, but without a murder weapon, maybe the case wouldn’t have been strong enough to charge a particular person (and I suspect there was no gunshot residue on the hands of the shooter whenever the scenario played out, because it was a ghost gun. Which still kills people, yes, but that’s not the point).
Angel is not better than Buffy, but it is very good in its own way and I am fond of it. (I don’t like Doublemeat Palace, though, if that invalidates my opinion.) And Wesley’s character develops loads from what it was in Buffy, and he is excellent.
Also, whenever I need to cheer myself up I watch this, which makes the whole existence of Angel worthwhile even if nothing else does: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E11jvBX6VBg
This has always been my favorite Angel moment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVe1dsFkCmg
I knew what that was without having to click on it.
Thank you so much for finding that clip! It was totally going through my head the entire time I was reading this article but I was blanking on the episode. His mini clapping on the end sends me to a cheery place every single time.
You’re welcome! It is such a cheering thing.
I also handwave the gun thing away with “because the Mayor”. See also: Principal Snyder in the back-to-school-night episode: “Gangs. PCP.”
(I am the literal worst person to discuss this show with. I turn into a walking capslock keyboard smash.)
That sounds like the best person!
YOU’RE AWESOME.
I totally love Buffy meta and have least-favorite episodes and if people write cool essays I will read them and be all “that is amazing and I have never thought about it that way before” and then I put in one of the DVDs and become the Buffybot. “LOOK! IT’S SPIKE! AND HE’S WEARING THE COAT!”
I don’t think Angel is better than Buffy but if you never watch Angel, you’ll never get to meet Lorne! Lorne, the karaoke-bar owning empathic demon who can read people’s destinies when they sing cheesey karaoke songs, is my favourite character in the Buffy-verse. He’s so wonderful and kind (and tragic because the actor who played him died far too young). He’s definitely worth watching Angel for.
Lorne is awesome.
LORNE IS THE BEST! (ALL CAPS ENTHUSIASM)
I didn’t know that Andy Hallett had died, or how young he was (green make-up will do that). How sad. He was delightful.
Lorne is my beautiful cupcake and I am forever sad about Andy Hallett.
Oh, Lorne. I was trying to remember his name. Yes, he’s a great character. It makes me laugh that he is named for Lorne Greene. (Or I think he has some elaborate demon name, but Lorne is his human name).
I find Angel deeply boring as a character but I do like the supporting cast on the show it’s worth watching I guess. Lorne is great and Wesley gets good (and hot, which helps those of us who are dude-inclined because David Boreanaz is so… David Boreanaz). But it’s not even close to being better than Buffy. Anyone who tells you that deserves a slap to the face.
And now that I’m thinking about the show let me vent some specific gripes! I am hugely offended by the part of Angel where suddenly Cordelia is his romantic interest because like the whole point of him on Buffy was that Buffy was the love of his life, right? But then it gets worse with the whole Connor thing and what ultimately happens to Cordelia (no spoilers). Honestly the whole show becomes a big mess.
A big mess is the perfect description. Especially the last season – Cordelia’s whole thing, and I was never a big fan of what happened to Fred, either.
Oh god, yeah, I repressed that. Cordelia’s was worse to me though because of what I’ve heard about the behind-the-scenes of why they did it (i.e. Joss being outraged that Charisma Carpenter would dare to get pregnant IRL).
Cordelia’s storyline in season 4 is just about the worst thing you could do to an actress to punish her for getting pregnant. Or for any reason.
I didn’t know that! Ughhhhh. Joss is kind of the worst, turns out.
Aww but Amy Acker is awesome. Especially on Person of Interest.
Amy Acker and Alexis Denisof were metaphorically running CIRCLES around the entire rest of the cast of BOTH SHOWS the entire time. Joss Whedon was apparently cursed with the worst casting directors in all of America right up until Firefly.
Pete from Mad Men was on Angel? Whaaaa? I don’t really recall any specifics from watching Angel, but as for whether you should watch it or not, I say why not?
Also, how lovely would it be if John Hawkes found his way to this and answered your questions!? 🙂
He was Connor! UGH CONNOR.
Angel is NOT better than Buffy–don’t believe your liar friends whose goal is to destroy–but Angel in Angel is better than Angel in Buffy. Across the board, without equivocation, from episode one.
I find Buffy to be a better, more varied, less frustrating show overall, but Buffy Angel is unbearable and Angel Angel is at worst boring and periodically hilarious. So much more character variety than he was allowed in Buffy. And David Boreanaz is a total goofball, a fact which anyone who only watched Buffy would be unaware of. Where he seems merely a moron, or like James from Twin Peaks got bitten by a vampire.
ike James from Twin Peaks got bitten by a vampire.
^ Yesssss. You are my favorite.
It is worth noting that his Irish accent is about as good as his TaiChi, which is to say, terrible and an insult to everyone’s ancestors.
John Hawkes is also great in 12 Angry Men Inside Amy Schumer. He’s definitely not 7 any more.
Favorite John Hawkes moment:
Angel is not better than Buffy because it’s more of a mess than Buffy ever was but it is still Very Enjoyable. Especially Lorne (RIP) who is fantastic and Fred (I watched All That Business with the Tears once, it tore me apart and I can never watch it again. It was like watching myself die. The character and I are even from the same hometown. No, I do not accept Ilyria. She’s okay, she’s not Fred).
I’m only just now getting around to watching Buffy…have made it to season 7 in just a few weeks. Why didn’t I watch this before?!?! It’s so good!
Haven’t seen Angel yet, but I understand Spike appears in it, and I LOOOOOOOVE Spike. So. Must watch.
I don’t know why he WOULD get arrested for shooting a teacher. Sunnydaleans have highly developed superpowers for ignoring things. Like a girl who got a big award at prom for saving everyone all the time can die and be buried and they can have a headstone made for her and yet no one questions why she’s still walking around town and acting a little odd. And she can get shot and instantly heal during surgery and get up and walk out of the hospital and all the doctors and nurses let that go and it doesn’t even become hot town gossip.
Angel is OK. Until the Connor storyline gets going and ughgh.
and, aside from the pylea episode, I don’t think I’ve ever watched anything angel. lorne was too good for that show.
and i liked fred and gunn. but the end of that storyline??
sorry, meant to say never re-watched anthing Angel aside from Pylea. For Numthar!
but seriously i tried to rewatch Angel, but found myself yelling at the screen CONSTANTLY. i mean, i yell at Buffy too, but it’s not my primary interaction. and most of it’s more loving sass than actual angel-based exasperation
Numthar! Do the dance of joy!
Numthar! Cease to do the dance of joy!
Buffy is about teenagers fucking up for the first time. Angel is about adults who have fucked up trying to redeem themselves but making much worse problems. Buffy is high school, Angel is your mid twenties.
Angel is very horrible. Never watch it.
I too did not hate ‘Doublemeat Palace’ and I am NOT SORRY! But I have no real desire to watch Angel.
john hawkes, I have owned a copy of your book The Owl and the Goose on The Grave for several years but have not read it yet, are you mad about that or would you say it makes no difference to you
had I known that was you on Buffy perhaps I would have read it sooner
On the Spike/Destroying the world thing—- Isn’t it that Spike decides that ending the world is a bad plan because it’s Angelus’ plan, and at that point he’s pretty ticked at Angelus? And then chooses to defend that choice with some hint of logic, but it’s really mostly he’s annoyed at Angelus?
I might be misremembering or retconning this……
The delightful thing about Spike is that he sees absolutely no reason to be consistent.
…sure, let’s go with the character being inconsistent rather than the showrunners. That works too.
See, I would argue that wanting to run around and burninate the villagers via The Judge is right up Spike’s alley, because Spike likes the world, but he also likes to FUCK SHIT UP. If the world gets sucked into hell, there’s no human order for him to introduce chaos into and mess with, which is where the fun lies for him. You can’t rebel in a vacuum.
And I do think the catering to Drusilla angle has to be taken into account – with The Judge he’s trying to make her happy because he’s so besotted, but by the time Acathla rolls around he’s just trying to get her back.
That was how I always interpreted it, too — that his team-up with Buffy is mostly about being ticked off at Angelus and trying to keep Dru away from him. Because also, in Becoming, pt. II, after he knocks out Dru, he picks her up to carry her out, notices that Buffy is losing her fight with Angelus, and then shrugs and leaves. If he were really concerned with whether or not the world was going to end, he would have helped Buffy keep Angelus from waking up Acathla, but his main priority was actually just getting Dru as far away from Angelus as possible.
That said, none of that motivation is made explicit in the show, I’ve just spent a lot of time thinking about this.
And the Judge was a birthday present for Drusilla – helping Angelus destroy the world is one thing, teaming up with Drusilla to do so is another thing entirely.
help I did not know i was attracted to john hawkes before googling him because of this article
i’d only seen him in winter’s bone, how was i to know
now i know this
i don’t want to know this thing about myself
Buffy isn’t that good.
::hurls self into convenient ditch as bomb explodes::
Okay, what demon or otherworldly power has possessed you and forced you to say such a thing?! Giles! Let’s research! Don’t worry; we will figure this out and find a way to save you. Again.
I am very fond of the musical episode! And the 2nd and 3rd seasons overall – but the rest is meh for me.
I tried watching it.
You’re right.
I’ve seen every episode and I adored it when it was a running show. And it will always be with me.
That said. You are correct.
John Hawkes, when you were filming The X-Files episode ‘Milagro’ what did you think of the pretentious, florid narration you were given? Did you realize that it would be some of the worst in the show’s history? And this is coming from a show created by Chris Carter, who gave the world a beautiful beautiful gift but also so many monologues. So many.
John Hawkes, when you rewatch The X-Files again and again, are you conflicted about all of the episodes in which Scully is victimized? Because yes, it does make sense that if a monster were to target one of the two partners they would mostly likely pick the petite woman instead of the 6 foot tall man, but also, come on guys. This often?
John Hawkes, how much did you cringe when you were supposed to be narrating Scully’s inner thoughts or something, in which apparently she focuses a lot on how soft and weak and lesser she is? Did you comfort yourself with the fact that you were just narrating what your character thought she was thinking, not what she was actually thinking?
John Hawkes, how ridiculous did you find it that Scully would become attracted to the creepiest writer to ever creep? Did you find it all plausible that she would become aroused by a stranger who moved into Mulder’s building just to be closer to her instead of filing a restraining order?
John Hawkes, was this episode, like…someone’s fan fiction?
Thank you. I had a brief rant on somebody else’s post about the garbage episode that is Milagro (for all the reasons you just listed).
The first time I watched it I was in a rage because it’s like the writers read the worst fanfiction, got the idea that that’s what fanfiction is, and wrote a twisted version of their own to mock and degrade fans.
Their motivations were probably not quite that disturbing, but the results are the same.
David Boreanaz – much better as an intentional doof on Bones than an accidental doof here. Actually quite charming when given a plainer script and character points he can hit like clockwork. But, I mean, I’m willing to be fought on that one.
No, I agree with you entirely. I don’t watch Bones as a general rule, but every time I have, I’ve been surprised by how likable Boreanaz can be when he isn’t being required to mope or pretend he can do a credible Irish accent. Even in Buffy, the only time I ever found him interesting was when he was evil, because he was allowed to let rip to a degree ensouled Angel was never permitted. Really a pity that, on not one but two shows that were remarkable for their mix of comedy and grand guignol, he was only rarely allowed to do what he has an actual talent for.
Angelus > Angel, any day.
Also better when he’s never ever called upon to do an accent.
I love Sol Star on Deadwood and that is all I know about John Hawkes and that is enough for me.
Dear Mallory, Please watch Angel so that you can see how amazing Cordelia becomes in a setting where she does not have to compete with other girls, and then have your heart broken by Joss Whedon’s obsession with demonic pregnancies (yes, there are multiple demonic pregnancies) and write about your feelings and then all of us who were fans of Angel until we were disappointed by one too many demonic pregnancies will leave comments saying how right and correct your feelings are. Yours etc.
Here for this.
Dear John Hawkes, why did everyone on Buffy use crucifixes to defend themselves against vampires, including Willow, who was Jewish? Does the crucifix’s power against vampires depend on the faith of the vampire or of the person wielding it? If the former, why were there only Christian vampires? If the latter, why did Willow use a crucifix?
I have wondered this FOREVER.
I’ve always wanted to see someone flinging Stars of David like shuriken against vampires.
I’ve always wanted to see someone hold up a crucifix to a vampire, only for him/her to smile and say “sorry, I’m Jewish”, pluck the crucifix out of their hands, throw it away, then rip the person’s head off. Hindu, Muslim, etc. would work as well.
I think crosses are just easier to make. Have you ever tried to make a Magen David with popsicle sticks and yarn?
Angel is not at all better than Buffy. The annoying characters are however mostly better than they were on Buffy (unfortunately Angel is still Angel), and there is a karaoke demon, and a puppet episode, and that makes it totally worth watching.
I feel like Angel is less annoying to rewatch than Buffy, since Buffy had far more irritating characters than Angel (even Connor at his worst can’t compete) but then again, Angel had way more filler episodes…
If you can cope with ‘Doublemeat Palace’ you could definitely deal with Angel, though.
Angel is, like, six or seven shows spliced together, so, yeah, one or two of them are probably worth watching. I’ve certainly never seen anything else that started out at noir and ended up at workplace comedy.
I watched all of Buffy and Angel with my teenage daughters and I enjoyed them, but my girls obsessed over them and still use those shows as a shorthand judgment regarding who they will be close friends with. Nobody has even mentioned Doyle, in Angel’s first season. I loved Doyle, and was so sad when he was killed off, and then found out that he died in real life at age 32, sadly.
Oh no I did not know that!
The thing that makes me sad is that Doyle never got to be in the show when it got good. So if you rewatch, your choices are, watch eps with Doyle in, or skip to the good eps but miss Doyle.
Watch the first three seasons of Angel, but then tell yourself that Cordelia never falls in love with Angel because that’s dumb squared and instead she and the Groosalugg just live happily ever after and have cute half-demon babies, if cute half-demon babies are your thing.
All I know is that I tried to do a complete re-watch of Buffy and Angel in the order they were broadcast, and I’ve been stuck for the past 7 months trying to finish season 3 of Angel. I just checked and I never even finished episode 18.
Buffy is better. But Angel season 5 is not to be missed. Plus, the puppet episode is hilarious.
It took my boyfriend and I several years to finish Season 6 of Buffy. But we have now! You can do it!
Honestly, if you really hate Fred you could just peace out at the end of season 2 – it would still cover a lot of the really good stuff. If you decide you can stand Fred, watch up to the end of season 3, then watch Smile Time. THE END.
Y’all, remember the first time Angel talks to Buffy and it’s like watching a simulacrum made of chest wax and hair gel attempt human speech?
Also “[g]iven that Joss Whedon drives so many of us crazy so much of the time, why can’t I stop watching old episodes of Buffy on Netflix at 2 in the morning, 18 years later?” is the defining question of my life right now.
I am scandalized to learn that anyone doesn’t love Cordelia.
I adore her. Cordelia is transcendent.
Mallory, Mallory, Mallory: why not just go whole hog and tell us what’d be like if John Hawkes were our special gentlemanfriend: I can feel that you want to; my heart burns there, too; &c.
Angel is absolutely not better than Buffy. It is however, totally worth watching, if nothing else than for the fact that Wesley has the greatest character arc ever written.
To be honest I found “look how loveable goofball and light comedy Angel is being he’s like a large bounding dog XD” to be more annoying and unconvincing than Angel Man Pain. I think Summer Glau is hardly in it. I think a lot of it becomes everyone sitting around in an office saying “man everything is so Painful right now, this is Real Issues now kids” but I think pulls it off more like a tension headache and less like the heartbreak of when Shit Gets Real in Buffy. I don’t remember much about Fred other than I think I formed a summercamp attachment to her just from her being one of the only female main characters left by the end of it, and I think what happens to her was stupid in a within the universe kinda way. That’s spoilery but I mean it’s Joss Whedon you know already. But I also do like the character that comes after happened to her and that kinda ended up reconciling the struggle of watching the series for me (but I was also watching it for a girl so I wouldve watched the whole thing anyway)
Angel is awful. A lot of people seem to really like it. Those people have bad opinions and they should try harder next time.
Ughhhh I had always assumed that Charisma Carpenter wasn’t a main character in season 5 because she wasn’t available, and then I heard the actual story and UGHHHHHH. Even worse she only found out she wasn’t in S5 when a journalist called her to ask about how she felt about not returning! Fuck you Whedon!
And that one episode she is in is so great! They could have absolutely brought her back for the whole season and had it be amazing but no, they had to bring back Spike (who had grown pretty tiresome on Buffy and really didn’t need to come back) just so Angel could have someone to bicker with.
I feel really conflicted about the whole Fred thing because I LOVED Illyria but every time I hear one of the writers saying Fred’s character ‘had run its course’ I just want to smash something because they wasted her so badly. You have a scientific genius with a bazillion dollar lab at an evil law firm and you can’t think of anything to do with her other than kill her off and replace her with a completely different character? Yeah, ok guy.
If John Hawkes’s publicist or assistant or paid non-attorney spokesman doesn’t alert him to this piece, I don’t even know.
Angel is wonderful (though not better than Buffy, I’m a huge fan yet I don’t know why people say that, unless they hate shows with strong female protagonists or something), but I’m honestly confused as to why anyone would try to convince someone who doesn’t want to watch it that they should. It’s true that Lorne is original and lovable, everything having to do with Pylea is hilarious, Season 5 is a true masterpiece of genre mixing that works on almost every level, Gunn is IMHO Whedon’s sole example of a successful PoC character, Fred is an amazing portrait of a genuinely brilliant woman, the whole show’s driving metaphor functions pretty effectively as a thematic sequel to Buffy because it’s about screwing up in the work world instead of in high school/college, and anyway, Summer Glau is only in the show for like 10 seconds (not that I share the hate; I don’t). But it also has problems, as all Whedon products do, and in this case the problems include a perpetually testosterone-heavy cast, an imbalance of filler episodes to arc in the early seasons, multiple demon pregnancy storylines including a truly crappily written Season 4 (made even worse by an actor straight-up rebelling against her storyline — even with the poor maligned actor playing Connor totally committed to his poorly conceived character, acting his heart out, Charisma Carpenter totally sinks every scene they’re in together because she’s too angry and betrayed by what they’ve done to her character to even try) — and worst sin of all, a general inability to keep living female characters on the show. Also I love Wesley and his arc just like everyone else but hate to say it, it’s also HELLA PROBLEMATIC. So you know what? Go watch something you will actually like.
But, anyone reading this thread who has thought about watching Angel from time to time and kinda wants to? Go for it! It’s awesome.
I love J. August Richards and I will follow him where ever he goes. But Gunn was an incredibly problematic stereotype. Listening to the “street” dialogue that was written for him during his early episodes was painful and his arc was offensive at times.
Don’t know if you noticed, but between “Angel” and “Bones,” David Boreanaz has been headlining shows of his own — in the second example, a highly successful show — for a total of fifteen seasons (so far, since “Bones” has been renewed for an eleventh season). This makes him the BTVS cast member* with the most successful post-series career, by far. (Second-place finisher Allyson Hannigan had HIMYM and a supporting part in the American Pie movies, but has yet to headline a project of her own.)
*Not counting Danny Strong, who wasn’t a regular and whose post-BTVS success has been as a writer and producer rather than an actor. Still, yay, Danny!
I love Wesley and his arc just like everyone else but hate to say it, it's also HELLA PROBLEMATIC.
YUP. I think Wesley is such a fascinating character, but the man kept a woman in a closet with a bucket, and that doesn't even touch on his relationships with the other women on the show.
Aah, nothing like a good Buffy post to remind me, “Yes. The Toast. They are my people.”
If you’re going to watch Angel, I recommend that you be hardcore fangirl about it and re-watch Buffy at the same time, and interlace the two shows, watching them in the order they were originally aired, so you can super-obsess about crossover episodes and how the two storylines do and don’t intersect. And your appreciation of Buffy will become deeper and richer and more complex and more finely detailed, which is really important.
http://josswhedon.blogspot.com/2012/04/buffy-and-…
This does mean you’ll have to suffer through the Connor storyline in Angel which will make you want to gnaw your own brain out to escape, and also that ridiculous business with the sun somehow being blotted out in Los Angeles but nobody noticing it anywhere else, not even in Sunnydale. Still. Yes, Angel has some great character arcs and episodes. The one about the swami still cracks me right up. And the Jasmine storyline still gives me chills. One of the most terrifying things I’ve seen on television. Nothing as dangerous as a villain who think they’re a hero.
Interestingly, Doge as a response to a thing makes me immediately invested in investigating that thing. I can't explain myself.