She Said, She Said: Advice on Yappy Coworkers and Being Poorer Than You Want

249 Comments

1. NicoleCliffe +260 May 2, 2014 2:05 pm

   “I know motherfucker can’t fix a sconce.”

   1. PonyAlong +55 May 2, 2014 3:49 pm

      I loved that, too. And this:

      “You do not have to make your creativity literally smaller than his so that he can take up more space than you. Reading this letter made my lungs constrict; I can feel you wanting to be breadwinner and cheerleader at the same time and being very careful not to ever loom too large or inhabit the shoes of his Mean Buzzkill Dad, a specter that neatly prohibits you from ever criticizing or challenging his joblessness.”

      Your answer “I absolutely think that you could make a small list of cheap possible home improvements, starting with the easiest and cheapest, and say: “Hey, is this something you think you could do?” is freaking bang on as well.

   2. elsamac +84 May 2, 2014 4:07 pm

      Let it be said: “being handy” isn’t necessarily an inborn thing. I was decidedly unhandy with household repair until I partnered up with a guy rehabbing a crumbling eccentric Victorian home, and my once-clumsy hands quickly learned how to steam off wallpaper and smooth a hellishly rough wall of crumbling horsehair plaster and lay down new lino and repair a minor toilet leak.

      I started out saying “Oh, I have no idea how, are you sure I should?” and ended up teaching my partner how to use the countersink drill bit to lay a metal plaster button flush in the crumbling wall so it would hold together when you slathered it with new plaster.

      Household handiness can be an innate skill, but it’s much more often a knack you learn from necessity. And in a household with more than one adult and one working in home, the one at the home had better learn some form of handiness, whether it’s the ability to fix the running toilet or to quiet a squeaky hinge or make dinner from whatever’s in the cabinet or to get grass stains out of a soccer uniform or fix a sconce.

      1. LeastBittern +76 May 2, 2014 5:34 pm

         I concur! My parents are very handy people, but lord in heaven, I remember when they were learning to be handy. It was totally learned.

         And if you go to a hardware store and find the oldest person on floor there (like fifty. find someone who’s fifty, not twenty-five) and treat them with massive respect, they’ll tell you anything you need to know.

         Pick a hardware store near your house, so you can go back two or three times over a weekend. (We call it Norming, because my parents’ guy is named Norm. The hardware store eventually put a little sign in the alcove he often haunts: it says “Norm, plumbing fittings, adhesives”)

         1. slowseptember +58 May 2, 2014 6:23 pm

            This is a) a good tip and b) the best thing I’ve heard all day. “Aisle five: Norm.”

         2. Prawns +22 May 2, 2014 7:07 pm

            Oh yeah. My dad works at Home Depot as one of his jobs, and he is forever telling me stories about just explaining to clueless people how to do the small jobs that need doing that will improve their lives immensely.

         3. elsajeni +31 May 2, 2014 7:27 pm

            My father-in-law picked up a job at the hardware store now that he’s semi-retired, and he loves it. I’m pretty sure he is somebody’s Norm.

         4. nonvolleyball +6 May 5, 2014 1:33 pm

            also, a thousand times yes to “not twenty-five.” when we first moved into our place I tried to ask a younger guy at Home Depot some questions about picture-hanging equipment, & given the massive amount of effort it took to even get an (incoherent & inaccurate) answer out of him, I think the conversation actually made me stupider & was thus the opposite of helpful.

   3. Rosebud +42 May 2, 2014 4:59 pm

      I don’t know how long these two have been together, but there’s no rule that you can’t re-negotiate your relationship’s terms periodically, especially as life circumstances change, like having a child. And if you do that, don’t compare yourself to his “miserable old grump of a father.” There are many ways to have that conversation and you won’t sound like his father simply because you are not. You are his wife and the mother of his child.

      Imagine when you’re both 65, living a life that you negotiated (or didn’t) when you were 25.

      1. permanentmarker +12 May 3, 2014 1:37 am

         YES. I think marriage vows should be rewritten to include a right to renegotiate without resentment.

      2. Gayer_Than_Thou +17 May 3, 2014 6:05 pm

         One can even say things like “I’ve hesitated to bring this up, because I’ve been afraid of sounding like your father, and I know that’s something the brings up strong feelings for you. So let me say in advance that that’s not my intent. If you’ll try to recognize when those feelings are happening for you, I’ll try to respect them while staying focused on what I want to talk about. K? Now, about the sconces…”

2. sheistolerable +160 May 2, 2014 2:07 pm

   My husband is also never going to make a lot of money, but he works 40 hours a week on his passion project and 25 hours a week on a side gig that brings in a reasonable amount of money for someone with a high school diploma. I guess what I’m trying to say is, I’m on Mallory’s side here.

3. CaptainNancy +228 May 2, 2014 2:11 pm

   And you can’t say “I’m fine” when you’re shrinking.

   Ooof, right in the smacker there Mallory.

   1. FionaChatwin +23 May 2, 2014 2:39 pm

      Oof is right.

      *slinks off to fold boyfriend’s laundry*

   2. elldubs +10 May 2, 2014 3:03 pm

      I actually said “Oof!” out loud when I read that line. Just… yeah.

   3. EPWordsnatcher +17 May 2, 2014 3:09 pm

      Those last two paragraphs. Right in the gut.

   4. MilesofMountain +13 May 2, 2014 4:29 pm

      Yep, that hit closer to home than I like.

   5. robot_dinosaur +38 May 2, 2014 5:53 pm

      This line hurts. I’m not in a relationship, my life is externally pretty solid, but I am not really happy and haven’t been. It’s not bad (I make more than enough money, I don’t have huge worries) but I’m not fine and I need to stop pretending that I am. Luckily I’ve already started to make a few changes, but I just wanted to say: thanks, Mallory.

      Just, thanks.

4. bgprincipessa +9 May 2, 2014 2:18 pm

   While this advice is of course wonderful, there is no such thing as too much advice. (is there? there probably is.) But I have to add that the lovely Ask A Manager recently covered the first topic as well: http://www.askamanager.org/2014/04/my-coworker-wo… (and there’s a second link from there to http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2014/04/30/coworker-… )

   1. cuminafterall +21 May 2, 2014 2:40 pm

      I have a cubicle, so no door, and my favorite trick is to “walk out” a person I don’t want to talk to. I’m at my computer working on something important, they come in and sit down and start chatting, I stand up and listen perfunctorily, then say something like “I was just going to get some water, so let’s chat later, okay?” Then they leave, I go to the water fountain for like a second, then I come back and finish my work.

      1. bgprincipessa +10 May 2, 2014 2:48 pm

         Someone in the comments on one of those said they had a coworker who would still be in their office when they got back if they did this. Could you imagine having the chutzpah to just sit in someone’s space while they left and wait for them to return?? Newsflash: you are not as close of a friend as you seemingly think you are.

         1. cuminafterall +11 May 2, 2014 2:58 pm

            Oh my God. If I had coworkers like that, I’d take my laptop and go sit in a bathroom stall to get work done, because I don’t like talking to people ever, but I REALLY don’t like telling them to go the fuck away.

         2. nonvolleyball +5 May 5, 2014 1:35 pm

            I feel like that’s a situation for “why are you still here?” while looking sincerely confused (& while resisting the impulse to soften it with a smile or other friendly gesture). because seriously??

            I can only imagine doing that in a) the office of my very closest workfriend & b) if & only if we were working on some kind of collaborative project that warranted my continued presence.

5. aravisthequeen +179 May 2, 2014 2:19 pm

   Sometimes I get flack from my friends because I tend to err on the side of “do what you love isn’t actually a career plan,” because it’s insanely privileged and not feasible and not a good IDEA for everyone. If you can do what you love AND make some money at it because it costs money to live in this world, that’s fine. But if it’s enough of an issue that your wife has to write in asking for advice on the best way to handle your lack of money…..there needs to be serious talks in place.

   DWYL is not enough. Sometimes it’s not even a plan. You can call me bourgeois if you like, but I will upvote Mallory on this every time.

   1. anninyn +72 May 2, 2014 2:26 pm

      Sometimes ‘dwyl’ can only ever be a hobby. And one of those times is when you are MARRIED and it’s not just your own concerns you have to worry about.

      1. onehandedhighfive +90 May 2, 2014 2:40 pm

         Plus DWYL is the most bourgy of all sentiments. It relies on the assumption that if you fail spectacularly, “things will turn out ok,” i.e. rich parents will sort it all out.

         1. anninyn +55 May 2, 2014 2:41 pm

            yeah, some of us don’t have that cushion. I have a friend who never dares to take the dwyl risk because she grew up in breathtaking poverty and is terrified of ending up there again.

            1. Es_Petal +22 May 2, 2014 3:37 pm

               This issue was a major part of why I split up with my ex – he had a cushion from his family and I had nothing, and he couldn’t get his head round why I was ‘risk-averse’ when it came to quitting jobs to go and travel round the world etc.

            2. kisseswithkirk +17 May 2, 2014 5:11 pm

               Uncomfy feels ahead! I’ve been working at a very steady and pretty well paid job that provokes both my anxiety and depression (work in a windowless room – I’m a tech monkey / projectionist) for much longer than I’d like because I’m terrified of changing jobs and going into the murky waters of uncertain employment / income. I would love to DWYL but yeah, those student loans and fear of going back into the life of small town poverty are just a bit too much to throw caution to the wind.

            3. jennycieplak +26 May 2, 2014 7:30 pm

               I hope for your sake you can find a job that doesn’t provoke your anxiety and depression – there is a lot of room in between DWYL without consequences, and do something that actively makes your life awful because of the money… Good luck.

   2. GreenGrasses +12 May 2, 2014 2:32 pm

      Yeeeeeeeeeeeepp!!

   3. EPWordsnatcher +10 May 2, 2014 3:10 pm

      yes yes yes yes yes yes yes

   4. Gayer_Than_Thou +78 May 2, 2014 3:34 pm

      OMG this. “Do what you love,” in a couple where one person devalues her creativity and is willing to take on much more of the burden of making sure the bills get paid, is just a way to outsource the frustration and risk of making a living out of one’s hobby. Outsource it onto one’s partner, and gosh what a surprise!, there might be gender dynamics at play.

   5. Julie the T +17 May 2, 2014 4:13 pm

      Ahhhh yes yes yes you guys:
      https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/01/in-the-name-of…

      This is so spot on. And really excellent advice, Mallory.

      1. dreamschream +6 May 3, 2014 5:49 am

         I second this. I have a job that I love, in a creative field. The kind of job that other people would kill for, the kind of job where students email me every day asking for advice and teachers have me talk to their classes. Guess what – this job of dreams, it still pays crap, and I won’t ever have a house or a kid until I move out of this creative field, and so like most people who hit 30 years old, that’s what I am thinking about. This is a time for the letter writer’s dude to go on some informational interviews and discuss what “success” at this thing will look like for him – because even “success” may not be enough to sustainably live on as an adult.

   6. Kate +33 May 2, 2014 9:24 pm

      I’ve become a big fan of “Love what you do.” I worked at Starbucks to put myself through grad school. I did not love smelling like vanilla syrup and burnt milk all the time (people always assume you’ll smell like coffee, but you don’t), but I did learn to appreciate a lot about that job. I liked the routine of it and I liked that it was challenging, but I didn’t have to think too much. I learned to love it, not because it was an amazing job, but because it provided me with what I needed — a break from school, and money to buy books (and beer).

   7. permanentmarker +14 May 3, 2014 1:49 am

      Once, when my sister-in-law was job hunting, I asked her what kind of job she was looking for and she told me “all she wanted” (as if it were such a minor thing to ask the universe) was a job that she loved to go to every day and that made her feel like she was “helping the world.” I wanted to punch her in the fucking face. She’s 4 years older than me and at the time I had been working 50-70 hour weeks at a drudgerous but decently paid job for 3 years straight while she had never had a full time job.

      DWYL is great if there is something you love that is moderately profitable (and there aren’t 1000 other people applying for the same awesome job). Otherwise you need rich and patient parents for it to work out.

6. anninyn +64 May 2, 2014 2:22 pm

   See, I am the creative one and because of mental issues cannot currently hold down a job and really would prefer to write full time, but you know what? I am STILL trying to find at least a part time job, because it takes the pressure off my lovely husband. (No luck yet! Anyone want to hire someone to write blogs for them from home? I’m good!)

   Creative people can still be creative even when they work miserable jobs. In fact, most of them have to.

   Have you discussed with your husband your plans for if he never makes it? That won’t be you being his mean old dad, it’s a reasonable, adult discussion that married people should have. It is not unsupportive to ask for support on your end, too.

   1. PonyAlong +14 May 2, 2014 4:14 pm

      I’m also the creative one (ECIAD alumni of 93, woot, woot!) and have mental issues (ADD, anxiety, depression) that make working difficult (living in an industrial-based rural town doesn’t help, either) so I’m totally relating to you right now AND agreeing with “creative people can still be creative even when they work miserable jobs”. So true.

7. tekkah +146 May 2, 2014 2:30 pm

   “you are not too special to work a part-time job to pay for your guitar strings.”

   THIS. THIS! I know women who have ~creative husbands~ who try to argue that a job bringing in stable money is “stifling their creativity” and it KILLS ME to see these women busting their asses at a 9-5 because their husbands have gotten it into their heads that to be a fully blooming creative person they have to have hours of free time to play Skyrim (literally, I get emails like “I worked all day and when I got home none of the chores were done because he said he got distracted by the Walking Dead” from my friends and I just… FLAMES. ON THE SIDE. OF MY FACE).

   I also know couples with creative types in them where that creative type does nothing but work work work on their creative stuff all the goddamn time, but the huge difference there is that they’ve found a way to do it where their significant other doesn’t complain all the time about it. I feel like if you’ve got a Creative SO situation where one side is complaining all the time that’s where the problem is, because clearly it CAN be done so that everyone is happy all around. Clearly that’s not the case for LW, or we’d never have seen this letter.

   I understand wanting to do what you love but when you have OTHER PEOPLE IN YOUR LIFE relying on you to carry your share of the “basic essentials and agreed-upon standard of living” load, whether it’s a wife or children or roommates, you can’t expect everyone around you to sacrifice so that you can have your cushy fantasy life. It’s unfair, point blank.

   1. amanita +80 May 2, 2014 3:22 pm

      Basically I want to kidnap all the ladies and relocate with them to a nice commune somewhere where we split childcare and homemaking duties and bills so everyone has time to do the things they want to be doing.

      1. hawthorn_tree +17 May 2, 2014 3:39 pm

         I’m in.

   2. bibliobotic +48 May 2, 2014 3:50 pm

      Haha, I started and deleted like seven replies to your comment, so basically: YES, THESE THINGS ARE TRUE THINGS and also, you have heard a small fraction about my more recent ex already, but let me just say that this is exactly how we would have ended up. EXACTLY. Me hustling at my full-time job and him sitting home in his shorts, smoking the dregs of a bowl and writing weird alternative bass ukulele music about Heidegger (OR WHATEVER). It’s been two years and I still sit back about once a week and think, “Damn, I’m so glad that went down in flames when it did.”

   3. msjinxie +25 May 2, 2014 4:11 pm

      I lived with that guy when I was in my early 20’s! It was…not great. He fancied himself an artist and “filmmaker” but he never actually MADE any thing. He thought that housework, going to school, and/or doing any kind of paid work was for squares. All that drudgery was for me to deal with, because I wasn’t creative like he was.

      1. mbculver +16 May 2, 2014 8:42 pm

         I feel like somehow you can’t call yourself a creator/creative type if you just sit around playing video games or watching TV, and don’t actually MAKE anything. In that case, you’re not a creative type, you’re just a lump.

         1. msjinxie +4 May 2, 2014 8:55 pm

            And BOY was this dude a lump. He talked a big game, but 90% of his waking hours were spent dicking around on the internet.

      2. OtherRoooToo +3 May 8, 2014 12:46 am

         I still have a first chapter of a certain person’s *cough* novel which I flat-out refused to read.

         I said “Finish the book, and I’ll read it.” Because at minimum, I knew that would probably postpone my having to sit down with it – and refrain from critiquing it (I worked in A&R at a major; for cripes’ sake. Why do these dudes think you’re going to forget everything you ever learned or saw – manuscripts and tracks literally in the tens of thousands – just to review their wurkz??) – for at least a good long while, if not forever.

   4. blushingflower +26 May 2, 2014 4:30 pm

      Also, if you can find a part-time job in your creative field, it can lead to networking opportunities, chances to improve your skills, etc. And while the job market sucks balls, there ARE part-time jobs out there that aren’t retail or food service. Or, you know, wait tables or tend bar, it’s not like millions of other performers haven’t done that to make ends meet.

      1. tekkah +66 May 2, 2014 6:43 pm

         Yeah, I think it takes a particularly obnoxious breed of entitled immature jackass to think that they are somehow above the hard work that everyone else in the world has to do to make ends meet. There are countless creative types who BUST ASS every day to make the money they need to live and work on their creative stuff when they can, but these people are somehow too good for that? Their creativity is so delicate that it can’t handle existing alongside other responsibilities?

         1. jennycieplak +3 May 2, 2014 7:33 pm

            This comment wins.

         2. MmeSiniichulok +10 May 3, 2014 11:08 pm

            You have described my father exactly. He quit his well-paying job when I was seven (went out with a bang, or at least a giant tantrum) without lining up another one, and my mother (who was a complementary kind of jackass) delighted in martyring herself by doing freelance editing for 12+ hours a day and sacrificing her “creative dreams” (performing folk songs for audiences that were nonexistent because she refused to make herself appealing to others in any way) so that he could fulfilll his (lounging in his “office” smoking weed and writing a G-d-awful sociopathic novel, and the odd music review that he got paid for but sometimes only two dollars per review for one particular magazine). Both of my parents believed that women should martyr themselves to men in the creative sphere. My mother could blame him (and us kids, for existing and needing money to be spent on us, like for food and clothes) for ruining her “artistic career,” and my father could blame all three of us, because having to think about a family at all, even in passing, meant that his creative mojo was sapped and THAT was the reason why his novel still isn’t published or finished thirty years later and not because it sucks or anything. My mother is dead, but my father still thinks that women exist to do the practical sh!t so men can exercise themselves on the higher plane of existence, so he really doesn’t like that I’m unemployed and taking care of my baby right now (or that I went to graduate school), because it means that I might not give him money or support him if and when he decides he needs it. (He works part-time at a radio station and still writes those poorly remunerated reviews.) In a perfect world, I would be a full-time artist, but as it is I will be very happy to get a day job and do the art when I can. I would never want to subject my baby to that kind of family life.

            1. OtherRoooToo +8 May 8, 2014 12:49 am

               “but my father still thinks that women exist to do the practical sh!t so men can exercise themselves on the higher plane of existence,”

               This … explains … so much.

               I don’t like what it explains, so much, but it did its job with a bullet.

               Thank you.
               *sigh*

         3. Greg +4 May 6, 2014 4:09 am

            YES. Thank you. I work 40 hours a week at a law firm. I’m a pretty damn accomplished playwright with an MFA + have made my own webseries, but I’m not complaining. The law firm job gives me health insurance and I write in evenings or on my lunch break. But dear christ, no one is above a day job.

8. deleted2845473 +77 May 2, 2014 2:44 pm

   I have no advice for the letter-writers but Mallory’s response to the second one really got me. I catch myself all the time going “I’m a writer– well, not a *Writer,* I mean I’m a copy writer, it’s not interesting or anything. . .”

   1. anninyn +28 May 2, 2014 2:50 pm

      Don’t do that to yourself! Copy-writing is hard, and is a specific skill that many people can’t develop.

      1. deleted2845473 +42 May 2, 2014 3:11 pm

         I know, I know! Or at least on an intellectual level I do. But then I run into people who want to tell me that their creativity is “bigger and better,” because they’re working on a novel or they have some kind of Vision, and I remember that I don’t do much personal writing anymore and definitely don’t feel like I’m carrying around an artistic vision. And it fucks with my head a little, you know?

         But in the end, I have health insurance, so ha!

         1. anninyn +17 May 2, 2014 3:16 pm

            fuck, I write prose and do not have an artitist vision. I just write shit, you know? Copy writing is just as ‘creative’. You’re still creating images and things with your words.

            Don’t let it fuck with your head. Youa re still a writer. And you earn money doing it! The holy grail.

         2. twobluebikes +18 May 2, 2014 5:07 pm

            You take a blank screen and you turn it into words. That’s alchemy right there. What the words are used for is totally beside the point.

         3. mirandawmeyer +14 May 2, 2014 6:56 pm

            I feel you. I remember once talking to a friend of mine who, at the time, was trying to go into journalism, and we were having some sort of free-range conversation about Growing Up and Careers and whatnot. And he referred to my writing, which is all political and/or media analysis, as “your art” and I corrected him: analysis isn’t art, after all! It’s not creative! I’m just putting pieces together! And he wasn’t having it. He pointed out that I’m still creating something, I’m still putting the pieces together in a way almost no one else can (regardless of whether I believe deep down that this is ~creative~ writing, I know damn well I’m extremely good at it), and what’s the point of that distinction anyway?

            It’s not something I think about that often, as I feel very little…need, I guess? to think of myself as “creative” or “artistic,” but it definitely sunk into the bottom of my mind and pokes out a tentacle every so often to be like, “Hey. Hey. Don’t downplay your shit just because it’s not ~Art~ in the common sense.”

         4. mollyculetheory +18 May 2, 2014 8:12 pm

            Ugh I do the same thing, “I’m a scientist and a writer. Well, not exactly a writer. I write things? Sometimes? Out of words? Mostly on the internet? But I wouldn’t go so far as to *say*…” because I work on random small projects and not, like, a novel. But I also work like 60+ hours a week doing science that can be crushingly tedious and intellectually exhausting at the same time! And then I produce some tiny pieces that sometimes get published places! GUESS WHAT MOTHERFUCKER UR ALSO A WRITER.

         5. permanentmarker +8 May 3, 2014 2:04 am

            Health insurance is no small thing! Artistic integrity is awesome and all – once a generation or so there’s some penniless writer/artist who changes the world (and then usually dies of tuberculosis before being properly appreciated). But usually it’s just people with their vanity projects. I’m a lawyer and make my living writing, which is a pretty isolated way to live, but I’m surrounded by stay-at-home-mommy bloggers who are constantly posting treacly slice-of-life vignettes on Facebook and those impressive sounding media sites that don’t actually pay for content. They get dozens of comments for every cute my-kid-farted-in-the-minivan story they tell while I sit alone in my office on conference calls.

            But at the end of the day, I think very few people realize creativity is fucking hard work. It’s easy to have Vision, it’s hard to hone a skill and a craft and make a living out of it. If it were easy everyone with Vision would have health insurance.

   2. logicbutton +29 May 2, 2014 3:30 pm

      It took me far too long to stop defensively adding “I mean, it’s my job title!” whenever I tell someone I’m an editor. No, just because it’s not the type of editing that’s been identified for glamorization doesn’t mean it’s not what I do.

      1. zizzivivizz +29 May 2, 2014 5:36 pm

         High five from another editor who doesn’t do “the type of editing that’s been identified for glamorization”! My part-time day job that supports my academic book-writing habit is as an editor of technical writing, and I’m really goddamn good at it. Plus, after doing it for ten years I now know A LOT about electrolytic corrosion and elevators and a lot of other words that start with E.

   3. eliana23 +11 May 2, 2014 4:01 pm

      I do it too. I’m starting THE BOOK and saying that in my head, let alone out loud, acknowledging Dreams and Hopes and Trying to be a Writer–I gots to practice that. Yes, I do work to pay the bills, but maybe just maybe? I’m a WRITER.

      1. tekkah +3 May 2, 2014 6:54 pm

         High five, starting THE BOOK! I am also doing that, and it is exciting and also terrifying. Solidarity!

   4. beckchel2 +6 May 2, 2014 4:58 pm

      Are you me? That’s literally the exact same thing I say EVERY time I get asked…

      1. nonvolleyball +2 May 5, 2014 1:40 pm

         I do the same thing, & while I do feel my compulsion to distinguish myself from, say, novelists is somewhat justified (because if you misunderstand & then get excited to talk to me about creative writing, we’ll both get bummed out), it’s not like we live in a world where professional titles are just assigned at random without any relationship to the work a person does. “oh, so you write & edit then?” “what?! oh, heavens, no! I sort widgets into different containers & also clean bathrooms.” (not to hate on jobs in widget-sorting or cleaning, of course.) & I love my job & worked hard to get here, so it’s weird that I end up apologizing for it so often in conversation. I’m trying to break myself of the habit, though.

9. hearyoume +55 May 2, 2014 2:45 pm

   Mallory, your response to LW2 was beautiful and perfect and spot on. Just, thank you.

10. snaxstax +164 May 2, 2014 2:53 pm

    I have…a lot of thoughts about LW2, but the one that is most coherent/that I feel qualified to talk about is: HAVE YOUR HUSBAND FIX UP YOUR HOUSE, YOUR HOUSE THAT IS MAKING YOU SAD. “Not being handy” is not a thing anymore: we have the internet now, and there are tons of ways you can make a rental less grim and depressing that are cheap and reversible, and if you say to your husband “The state of our house makes me feel bad about my life” and he responds with ANYTHING but “How can we make it better,” the Toast, I’m sure, will be happy to descend on your home to make him pay and/or spackle some shit for you.

    1. elsajeni +80 May 2, 2014 3:04 pm

       Yes! I have a stay-at-home husband of my own. He is not, like, “handy” in the sense that he has a lot of experience building/repairing stuff or some magical natural gift in that area, but you know what he does have?
       1. A toolkit that he bought for like $20 at Home Depot
       2. Youtube
       Those two things, plus (I think this is the part LW2’s husband is probably missing) the desire to actually make our home livable? That’s pretty much all it takes to turn him into a HOME REPAIR WIZARD.

       Honestly, I think the real issue here isn’t that he isn’t handy; it’s that he doesn’t care. The house, as it is, is good enough to make him happy, and he either doesn’t know yet (I feel like the LW is maybe keeping quiet about these feelings) or has heard but doesn’t really understand that it needs some fixing up to be a place that also makes his wife happy.

       1. ArsenioB_Ham +59 May 2, 2014 3:19 pm

          Yes! And he never has to care or even pretend to care about the improvement projects themselves. He can retain that apathy forever, if he likes. But if there’s something your partner wants (needs, it sounds like, for improved mental health and overall life happiness!), and you feel neutral about it, just do it, right? That’s kind of a fundamental rule of Being in a Relationship.

          1. elsajeni +33 May 2, 2014 4:58 pm

             Yeah, by “he doesn’t care” I think really what I mean is, [Specific Home-Improvement Project X] doesn’t matter to him and he’s falling into the habit of thinking, “Well, if it’s important to my wife but not to me, then she’s welcome to do it, but I shouldn’t have to.” Which… not to say that I’ve never done that, you know? I am the slobbier partner in my marriage and I’ve definitely taken that attitude toward, like, vacuuming (I hate vacuuming). But eventually you have to start seeing the two of you as a team, and things that matter to one person become things that matter to The Team.

             1. ArsenioB_Ham +11 May 2, 2014 5:20 pm

                Exactly! I also should add that when I said ” if there’s something your partner wants (needs, it sounds like, for improved mental health and overall life happiness!), and you feel neutral about it, just do it, right?” I don’t mean, like, knitting club or MMA fighting. I was referring to shared things like the family home or holiday traditions.

       2. permanentmarker +9 May 3, 2014 2:11 am

          So much yes. And even if he is completely adverse to the $20 toolkit AND youtube, it is entirely possible that he could get a small part time job of some sort to have extra money to pay someone else to do these things. Men who feel like they can opt out of the effort required to have a reasonably adult homestead because it’s something “their wife wants” make me feel so stabby. I want to make them all sit down and do a two-column marriage cost/benefit chart.

    2. thebellewitch +31 May 2, 2014 3:26 pm

       Definitely. Lots of feelings here (most strongly, he does not get to use his grumpy old dad as an excuse to never be challenged on his life plans), but I think this is the most immediate thing the LW could do. If husband can’t get on board with making some improvements and learning to be minimally handy … well, you’ve got deeper problems in that he isn’t caring enough about her happiness.

       Anyone can fix up a yard and for not all that much money, and if the kiddo is school-age, it could be a good bonding activity with dad. Ditto clearing out clutter, deep-cleaning and even replacing linoleum. A coat of paint does a lot for an old house, take it from someone who has never lived in a new build. Can he use a tape measure and a hammer? Great! He can build shelves in closets and increase their storage space.

       1. foiledthoughts +13 May 2, 2014 7:56 pm

          YES to the “don’t use your sucky dad as an excuse to do any work ever” because that is so incredibly selfish and unfair it makes my vision go blurry at the edges from sheer rage.

          Also, most of my sister’s and my childhood memories from ages 9-15 were sitting around picking up nails or whatever while my parents literally taught themselves how to build our new house. Granted, we all had to get a few extra tetanus shots but overall, it was really fun and there are SO many home improvement/design projects that parents can both teach themselves easily and do with their kids!

          UGH this dude just doesn’t want to bother to see how he can contribute to make sure SHE isn’t a grump/miserable.

    3. jtradke +16 May 2, 2014 3:29 pm

       Also also? I’m sure he has a handy friend who would love to help out/give advice.

    4. ann1011 +12 May 2, 2014 4:08 pm

       Yep. You don’t have to be naturally “handy” when there are YouTube tutorials on EVERYTHING.

    5. elldubs +64 May 2, 2014 4:11 pm

       Yessss. LW, start with the yard! It’s the right time to start and it’s pretty cheap and you do not have to be handy or anything to pull weeds and spread mulch and lay grass seed. It is so low stakes because you can’t like, break your yard, and makes such a big difference.

       1. theharpoon +43 May 2, 2014 5:10 pm

          “you can’t break your yard” ++++

    6. bibliobotic +30 May 2, 2014 4:24 pm

       Yeah, “not being handy” is not the same thing as “not being blue-eyed.” Handiness is not an innate characteristic; it is the word we use to describe a person who has acquired a certain set of skills. So get to acquirin’ already!

    7. Linette +42 May 2, 2014 6:05 pm

       YES. I feel like Mallory’s being perhaps a little hard on the dude, but she’s absolutely right that the burden of shouldering all the Things That Are Important to EITHER of them should not be on LW2. She’s clearly made a lot of effort to be okay with the Things That Are Important to Him, it is time that he put effort into the Things That Are Important to Her.

       He doesn’t need to get a job. He can be the stay-at-home dad, that’s fine. But being the homemaker involves, you know. Homemaking.

    8. shelikespie +6 May 2, 2014 7:34 pm

       “”Not being handy” is not a thing anymore”

       Yesss! Take if from someone who grew up thinking I was “not handy,” with a dad who got super stressed out by fixing things because he was always convinced he was going to fuck up. Being handy is not an innate trait and it makes no sense to write yourself off if you’re not magically instantly good at it, any more than you would say “welp, I can’t run 26 miles on my first run, guess I can’t be a runner then.”

       Also, you don’t need to be handy to clean or put away clutter!

    9. mbculver +5 May 2, 2014 8:44 pm

       I need to find a way to use “spackle some shit” every day in conversation.

11. themnemosyne +93 May 2, 2014 2:53 pm

    Mallory is 100% right. ROCK OUT TILL YOU DIE guy needs to grow the fuck up and contribute to shit.

    Listen, ok, I am A Creative Person and I recognize that no one is going to pay me to lie around and be A Creative Person all day, and I get super irritated with people who paste their hands to their foreheads and say, “Oh! As A Creative Person, I simply cannot be bothered with the HORRORS of having a NON-CREATIVE JOB (like YOU, you poor dear, you just must not be as creative as me) where I can’t JUST BE THE FABULOUS CREATIVE PERSON I AM 24/7. So I’m going to be late on rent this month. But, in between laying about and watching syndicated crime dramas, I wrote a thing! Haha! Take that, Establishment!”

    Until you are pulling in five or six figures on your Creative Stuff, y’all need to get a jerrrrrrrrrb.

    1. anninyn +28 May 2, 2014 2:59 pm

       “I recognize that no one is going to pay me to lie around and be A Creative Person all day,”

       Oh, but I’d love it if they did.

       “Look at you, writing difficult novels and short stories that surely ONE DAY will get published! Why, the creativity alone! Let me give you a living wage for that”

       1. themnemosyne +89 May 2, 2014 3:05 pm

          I have A Certain Friend who likes to peer down their nose at me for claiming to be A Creative Person whilst also not living out of a dumpster.

          (please read the following in Calculon’s voice)

          “Oh,” they sniff, “I could never do what YOU do. Work all day! With regular hours! I can’t just – show up to the same place at the same time, and leave at the same time, five days a week! My lifestyle! Is too CREATIIIIIIIIIIVE! TO BE STIFLED!”

          And I’m all like “man it is so great to be able to buy groceries”

          1. aravisthequeen +40 May 2, 2014 3:12 pm

             Oh my god. I can’t even read this without my blood pressure skyrocketing.

             BECAUSE I LIKE TO EAT, that’s why. I, too, enjoy the simple pleasures in life, like a place to live, and food to eat, and clothes to cover my body with. THE GLORY OF IT ALL.

             1. themnemosyne +21 May 2, 2014 3:19 pm

                Currently I have earned a total of $0 for my collective lifetime’s worth of Creative Stuff.

                But I don’t do Creative Stuff for money, not really, I do it because I like it, and I don’t expect it will sustain me financially via MAGIC. If, one day, it does, OMG THAT WOULD BE THE BEST THING. Until then? I needs must work at a place that isn’t Inside My Own Head, LTD.

          2. anninyn +44 May 2, 2014 3:20 pm

             I bet they never actually art.

             My experience of the ‘I am so!!!! CREATIVE!!! and it must never be STIFLED!!!!’ types is that never actually DO any creating. Actually creating things – art, writing, poems – is work and they don’t do it.

             1. themnemosyne +63 May 2, 2014 3:44 pm

                “do you even art, bro”

                haha but for real tho: they had one minor success several years ago and have produced nothing since.

             2. mandarinmarie +17 May 2, 2014 6:30 pm

                Yes!! I have a couple in my life like this, and the breadwinning woman has created SO MANY amazing things in her spare time in the 10-ish years they’ve been in this situation, and the not-a-cent-brought-in guy is theoretically nearing publication at some point but setbacks blah blah blah. Motherfucker can definitely not fix a sconce.

          3. D_e_x +80 May 2, 2014 3:22 pm

             MAN IT IS SO GREAT TO BE ABLE TO BUY GROCERIES

             1. theharpoon +63 May 2, 2014 5:12 pm

                I recently started actually keeping track of what I spend money on and realized how much I spend on groceries and at first I was like, WHAT, but then I was like, no I love my groceries

             2. robot_dinosaur +31 May 2, 2014 7:15 pm

                I buy fancy maraschino cherries and Parmesan cheese and it makes my life measurably better. Groceries 4ever.

             3. mbculver +44 May 2, 2014 8:46 pm

                When Mallory said she was “a petty, bourgeois hobbit who enjoys comfort and cleanliness and open windows and having extra towels,” it just made me love her more. Petty, bourgeois hobbits, unite!!

          4. sarahgundle +13 May 2, 2014 7:51 pm

             God, I miss buying nice groceries. I quit my well-paying, soul crushing job (nothing to do with Stifling the Creativiezzz, much more to do with limited upward mobility and rampant sexism) to go back to school to write and I’m busy applying to every damn job ever for after graduation. I’ll be a PA! I’ll be a whatever! Just give me enough money to feel like I can support myself again. I can be creative on my own time, it’s cool.

    2. MilesofMountain +63 May 2, 2014 4:43 pm

       I was trying to be non-judgemental when I was reading her letter and then I got to the point about a day job making him sooooo miserable and I just rolled my eyes. Does he think the rest of us are super excited to go to our cubicles every day? Maybe that job wasn’t for him, but the rest of us without sugar mamas find something that is tolerable then tolerate it. He doesn’t get to try working once, decide it’s not fun and give up, then claim that he’s “just not handy” and so cannot do house repairs/maintenance/improvements.

    3. Samk12345 +24 May 2, 2014 5:41 pm

       I have friends that are musicians and/or date musicians (I was a musician) and what the fuckkkkk. Cool and all, you’re “suffering” for your “art” and basically sit around and watch tv/smoke weed until your gigs cool and complain you don’t make enough money. B/c you need time to unwind after all that hard work of playing for 2 hours 3 nights a week. Oh, music theory/practice is elitist? Teaching music is for failures? Getting another job stifles your creativity? Fuck you!!!

       Why don’t we hang out? Oh, you want me to pay for your drinks/food you don’t want to leave the 5 block vicinity of your place unless it’s for work and you don’t bother to reach out for any other reason unless you need something? Fuck you!!!

       People need to be told more often that they suck at something. So that they either give up, or strive to improve. (Can you tell I had a tiger mom).

    4. highjump +45 May 2, 2014 6:30 pm

       I feel like (at least part of) the answer is staring him in the face: give fucking music lessons. Every even semi-serious musician I have ever known has done this at some point. Most prefer to keep doing it as a side hustle and to meet new people.

       He even has a kid already and LW2 mentions “after school.” Put up some damn flyers in that school! “[Kid’s] Dad, totally rad musician, can teach you how to play guitar!”

    5. robot_dinosaur +8 May 2, 2014 7:18 pm

       I started going to college for a degree in creative writing and came out with one in computer science. It was a great decision. Not for everyone! But it has worked for me. I don’t feel like a sellout, even on the days I don’t like my job. Sometimes I think I should take to the sea, or start a bakery. But with a practical degree, I have ended up in a much better financial/life position than I would have been in otherwise, even though my creative writing degree would not have left me in debt. I don’t know how my friend who took five years to get her creative writing degree (with a lot of student debt) manages.

12. wisco_disco +43 May 2, 2014 3:01 pm

    “Booze shanty” is absolutely how I will be describing my apartment from here on out. Booze shanty!

13. tubatoothpaste +68 May 2, 2014 3:03 pm

    I think Mallory hit the nail on the head about the whole ‘not wanting to be like his dad’ thing being a convenient way to keep the LW from bringing the subject up AT ALL, even in a kind, respectful way. You’ve got to be able to have a mature conversation about something like this without being dismissed as a miserable old grump.

    1. ArsenioB_Ham +25 May 2, 2014 3:27 pm

       Yes! This was my thought, too. I didn’t necessarily get the sense that the husband was constantly bringing that up to forestall any conversations/action about doing other stuff than his music (though maybe he is, in which case, that’s sort of manipulative).

       I assumed that the LW might have spent so much time in their head about this that they’ve spiralled into the mindset of “anything critical I say of Husband’s music = I am a mean grump like his dad.” And as Tubatoothpaste says, it’s absolutely possible and indeed necessary to have an adult conversation about this: “I am proud of the work that you do as a musician. How can we make some changes so that you can continue to pursue music while still contributing to the household in a way that makes us both happy?”

       I also fully agree with whoever said that the LW should ask the husband how he sees this playing out (no pun intended) in five…ten…twenty years. That’s always a useful check-in to do, even when the partner(s) are not necessarily unhappy with the current arrangement.

       1. tubatoothpaste +15 May 2, 2014 3:45 pm

          Yeah, it’s unclear whether it’s the LW or her husband who’s making the biggest deal about The Dad Thing. And no one’s saying “you MUST abandon all musical pursuits posthaste!” but you’ve GOT to be able to say “I’m feeling really sad and overwhelmed and I need more of your help with tasks x, y, and z”

          1. SmrtCookie +18 May 2, 2014 3:55 pm

             I’m also unclear on The Dad Thing. It strikes a chord with me because when I was a young cookie deciding what to major in at college my parents pretty firmly squashed my hopes of a creative major. For a long time I thought they were mean old grumps until I got out into the real world and realized there was no way I could have made a living using that creative major. So they weren’t mean old grumps, they were just looking out for future me in a way that took me a long time to recognize and even longer to admit. LW, it is totally okay to look our for your future husband and future self and future family.

             1. blueblazes11 +10 May 2, 2014 4:30 pm

                THIS! Mr. Blazes has a very expensive creative degree from an Important School and it has earned him exactly $0. He constantly opines that no one took him aside when he was a teenager and tried to explain the real cost of pursuing a creative passion that, frankly, he wasn’t outstanding at anyway. I think if even one person had said to him before age 20, “What is your plan if Creative Pursuit doesn’t work out? Because, you know, only 10% of people in Creative Pursuit are able to make a full-time living from it.” he’d have changed majors.

             2. apple_pi +8 May 2, 2014 7:20 pm

                I ALSO have a (mildly expensive) creative degree which I have used to earn about… $0. Okay, actually more than that, when you consider that I have occasionally gotten paid to sing at weddings and funerals and such and I actually worked in my field (sort of) as an elementary school music teacher for a whole ONE year, but basically, that was it. All my other professional work has been not just outside the field of music, but WAY THE HELL outside it. Despite that, though, I wouldn’t necessarily tell anyone NOT to get the degree they want – the mere fact of having a degree has opened lots of doors for me. No one really gives a damn what it’s in, at least, not where I am currently (checkered employment past, but have now worked for five years at a community college, helping veterans). I love my job now, and I sing when I can – on the weekends, with friends, etc.

                All that to say, I do think having a degree (any degree) is better than not having a degree, but either way, you have to be willing to work, and to roll with the employment punches. It’s pretty damned rare to have to the opportunity NOT to work your ass off and still get your needs met.

             3. blueblazes11 +7 May 2, 2014 7:44 pm

                That is very true. Just having a BA puts you at a distinct advantage over someone who only has HS or whatever. I think what my husband feels is that because he majored in this creative thing and all of his effort and education was very focused on it, he missed out on learning a lot of more employable skills like computer stuff or a foreign language. Like, maybe it would have been smarter to major in computer science and minor in creative thing.

             4. jennycieplak +8 May 2, 2014 7:48 pm

                I majored in college in a creative field, and I was very grateful that my parents didn’t lecture me on the fact that I would probably have made zero money at it, and then when I decided to go to lawschool my father actually cried with happiness. Also, I love what I do now, too. So I have been very lucky, I guess is what I am saying, to have been able to make that jump.

             5. MilesofMountain +13 May 2, 2014 7:10 pm

                A year or so ago my sister was venting to me about having to ride out her partner’s slow, painful realization and acceptance that he was not going to “make it” as an actor. We both ended up realizing how grateful we were that our parents made the financial realities of life very clear to us, even though in my sister’s case it meant that when she half-seriously suggested becoming a trophy wife, my mother told her “You’re not pretty enough. No one is pretty enough to make that work for life.” Harsh, but true.

             6. thelemonofpink +8 May 3, 2014 4:15 am

                My partner and I had the same situation around a year ago as well. When we first met he was doing some pretty intense acting work on the first Hobbit, and those hours, oy. “We’ll text you at 9.30pm to tell you your call time tomorrow is 5am the next day, but we might not want you for weeks at a time because we are JAUNTING off in the wilderness! Don’t get a job to pay your bills in the meantime, though, you’ll have to quit at short notice to come back tomorrow! If you don’t show up, we’ll never hire you again!” Anyway, acting gig finished, movie came out, partner got a day job. A year later, his agent emailed that they were doing more filming for the second instalment and they’d like him back for three months. I basically laid my cards out on the table that if he quit his job to go do this, I was not actually sure our relationship would survive because my priorities are “pay our rent on fucking time” and “not being the sole breadwinner.” It was incredibly tough (but he didn’t quit, and is supremely glad he did, because those who took the gig apparently got given three days work in three months).

14. Katni +46 May 2, 2014 3:07 pm

    A-FRICKIN’-MEN to Mallory’s response to LW2. My Starter Husband fancied himself to be a burgeoning tattoo artist (I was 20, foresight was not a skill I had acquired), and by the time I was 22ish, I had had enough of his unwillingness to hold down a stable job. And guess what, he never made a career out of tattoo artistry. And it sounds like LW2’s husband is considerably older, and, well, if rock stardom (or any other genre-stardom) was going to happen, it probably would have by now. You have responsibilities now, dude. Man up.

    1. bibliobotic +47 May 2, 2014 4:39 pm

       Your “starter husband,” oh this phrase makes me so happy.

    2. zizzivivizz +17 May 2, 2014 5:24 pm

       STARTER HUSBAND, YES. Poll: how many of us have these? Me, obviously. Mine was a musician.

15. amanita +93 May 2, 2014 3:09 pm

    Letter two is so real it actually makes me feel a little weepy/heartburny – like I have had this conversation so many times lately. Why is his stuff more important than your stuff. Why is he the only one who gets to follow his passion. Why do you have to sacrifice so that he can do x,y, z AND make sure your kids are fed. Getting hitched to my own extremely creative fellow soon, and the only reason is b/c he has given me the space to have my stuff. He has made sacrifices so that there is room for me, even though I am not the one out getting published or paid to speak or whatever. (And never will! My stuff is purely for my own enjoyment, but it is necessary to me being a person and that is enough!) He does things he doesn’t necessarily want to do so that I’ll be happy and have time to myself and WHY IS THAT SO UNUSUAL. WHY IS THAT TOO MUCH TO EXPECT. Ugh. Spot on, Mallory, but it is such a goddamn sad, awful thing that I am seeing all around me lately. I hate it.

    1. Dany +12 May 2, 2014 10:25 pm

       I hear you, sister friend. I had my eyes opened wide to this when I went through a break up a few months ago, and now I see that shit everywhere. Most of my female friends are in relationships with pleasant dudes who seem totally fine, but my friends are making themselves small in a bunch of ways – some subtle, some not – and, DAMN. It’s also depressing how all of them can openly criticize someone else’s relationship, but they are so blind to their own. They all think THEIR man is different….spoiler alert, he’s not.

       I ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY would rather stay single until I die than be in one of these relationships. Is it horrible of me to hope that many divorces happen in my friends circle in the future?

16. littlehuntingcreek +15 May 2, 2014 3:12 pm

    Mallory, your advice to #2 was perfect.

17. elldubs +67 May 2, 2014 3:16 pm

    So this guys misery while working a day job and doing music was present enough in your lives to make divorce a real possibility. But LW2, you sound pretty miserable right now and your unhappiness at a potential future of always living in “not a shack” matters as much as his unhappiness at a life in which he isn’t “totally not part of the corporate machine, man” or whatever.

    You’ve got a fundamental difference in priorities here, and that’s probably really scary to talk about because that’s relationship-ending stuff sometimes. But, it seems like right now you’re the only one making sacrifices for the relationship and that’s not an ok forever-situation.

18. SSVerity +41 May 2, 2014 3:19 pm

    I literally had to walk away from my computer for a few minutes to compose myself after reading LW2. My mother’s husband is a creative type, who makes juuuuuuust enough money to be self-sustaining in his creativity, while making minimal contributions to the household otherwise. He goes away for months at a time, during which my mother stays home and works her crappy job that barely pays the bills. Somehow she has convinced herself that this is okay, but it totally enrages me. She is also a creative type but because her art doesn’t always break even, she’s the one who has to have a job. A few months ago they got in a terrible car accident and he’s been in the hospital ever since with a serious brain injury (he’s actually coming home today). What do they have to show for years of supporting his lifestyle? Nothing, and they will probably lose their house.

    My partner and I are both creatives, but we both have “real” jobs. We have a long-standing agreement that if/when I make X amount of money (I have more earnings potential than him in my field) for X amount of time, he gets to quit his job and make a go of it. If that doesn’t work out to be sustainable after X amount of time, he has to get a job again. If it does work out spectacularly, I get to quit my job and make pursue my own interests and/or help with his. I’m not saying this is ideal for everyone, but you have to at least talk it out and land on something you can agree on!

19. YoungLeafedJune +251 May 2, 2014 3:20 pm

    GIVE UP YOUR DREAMS, ASS. God I am sick of young men and their dreams.

    1. amanita +86 May 2, 2014 3:43 pm

       Old men and their dreams are so much worse. I’ve seen where this ends up and it is not good. Not good at all.

       1. trambampoline May 5, 2014 8:10 pm

          You are 100% right, as my recent trip home illustrated quite nicely!

    2. boothjacobs +32 May 2, 2014 5:23 pm

       i would like to upvote this 10,000 more times

    3. britta_unfiltered +9 May 3, 2014 2:31 am

       Best comment anywhere, ever.

20. menunu +8 May 2, 2014 3:24 pm

    LW #2 I feel you, girl. Listen to Mallory, she’s definitely right.

21. Battle_Swine +37 May 2, 2014 3:30 pm

    Oh nooo you guys, I AM the interrupting coworker! what if everyone hates me

    1. Es_Petal +13 May 2, 2014 3:44 pm

       I’m sure nobody hates you as long as you can take a hint if they seem busy!

       1. Battle_Swine +12 May 2, 2014 3:49 pm

          I think I am good at taking hints! I really only do it to one coworker, and the way our work system is set up, I can see what everyone is working on and whether they’re busy, and I don’t interrupt when we’re busy. Plus it’s max once a day for a few minutes, I swear!

          *throws self away*

          1. Sulagna Misra +13 May 2, 2014 6:24 pm

             Maybe be aware of signals? I’m more like Mallory where I’m like “I have friends!!” when people talk to me, but you can also check in: “Are you working on something now? We can talk later.” Checking in is the best thing ever! It keeps people from checking out.

             Also, I always looked at “throws self away” as a specialized dance move. Love it!

    2. literarysara +12 May 2, 2014 3:50 pm

       You could always ask! “Do you have a moment to talk?” lets people opt in or out of your interruption, or put limits on it (“I only have a sec”).

       1. Battle_Swine +10 May 2, 2014 4:13 pm

          Oh yes, I do this! Hopefully I’m ok after all.

    3. jennycieplak +4 May 2, 2014 8:04 pm

       I was seriously afraid it was referring to me. If you work in my office you can come talk to me anytime, if I am busy I will just tell you.

    4. robotneedslove +4 May 2, 2014 10:44 pm

       Oh me too, but I kind of don’t care cause sometimes my need to chat overwhelms my need to be liked.

       But I would NEVER open someone’s door. Never. But I work in a time-billing profession.

22. heartstillatwar +31 May 2, 2014 3:31 pm

    Letter #2 made me feel so… claustrophobic for some reason. But Mallory’s advice is so perfect, I have nothing to add.

23. D_e_x +40 May 2, 2014 3:38 pm

    I feel like there’s added urgency for Musician Boy to grow up because his creative field is music. More than almost all other creative pursuits, it’s a young person’s game. Time on the road, lugging equipment, horrible hours. Even if you make it big enough so that roadies do your shit for you, it’s still grueling. All those things will make it harder and harder to maintain a family life and what is now a semi-volunteer gig will become nothing more than an increasingly expensive hobby. Unless there are changes, things are going to get worse and not better over time.

24. logicbutton +109 May 2, 2014 3:42 pm

    One of the most stubborn bits of patriarchy lodged in my brain is this idea that a husband’s career is something for his wife to work around. I hate, hate, HATE that I always need another person to give that bit of internalized misogyny a poke to remind me otherwise, but I always appreciate it when they do. Thanks, Mallory!

    Oh, a day job made him so miserable she thought they’d have to divorce, so he gets to not have one and she gets to swallow her standards? If your attitude toward your job is affecting your marriage, you know whose problem that isn’t? Your spouse’s, holy shit.

    1. CaptainNancy +27 May 2, 2014 3:59 pm

       Whereas I managed to internalise the opposite – that a woman should never do anything ‘big’ (i.e. life-changing-ey) for a man. Which, as it turns out, is equally as bad.

       Aaargh, we never win, do we? Bloody brain weasels.

    2. jennycieplak +10 May 2, 2014 8:06 pm

       That is a really interesting analysis, since the situation is normally flipped on its head – man has to support the family, woman has to work around his career so he can provide this support. Here she is working around his career even though she is the one supporting him.

25. jhsaxena +43 May 2, 2014 3:43 pm

    So! I am currently in a relationship where we both have full-time day jobs and both are growingly-successful (not a phrase, Jaya) creative people. I realize we don’t have a kid, which definitely changes things A LOT, but there are ways to work and parent and be creative that don’t require one person to give up on their dreams so the other person can live them. I know this because my parents did it, and because I have friends doing it, and it looks different for everyone but it can happen.

    I guess just say really think about that “small c” stuff. I TOTALLY GET enjoying being creative but not wanting to make a life out of it. Maybe you just want to make some movies in your downtime and don’t feel like devoting everything to your craft, and that’s totally cool if it’s how you feel! But I am definitely guilty of sometimes feeling like I have to put aside my dreams because it’s my “job” to make sure we have insurance or steady paychecks, or thinking that my potential success is not worth as much as his, and that is not as cool of a way to be. If it really is the former, great, you do you. If not, it’s time to talk to your husband and remind him that compromise goes both ways.

26. elsamac +114 May 2, 2014 3:54 pm

    I’m ashamed, when I think of how we live, when I think of having company over.

    Oh, letter writer, I know this feeling, but this feeling is not entirely rational. Your friends – your real friends – don’t care as much about the things you described in your home as you do. They may not even see the things you described. But they do see you, and they like you.

    My husband and I live in a tiny apartment where since our sofa broke (at one of our epic parties, in fact) the only comfortable seating is a crappy futon and two ottomans I made from old tables/crates and upholstery fabric. We have two tiny rooms cluttered with STUFF, a bathroom door that’s tricky to latch, a bathroom floor so stained from a long-ago leak that I can’t scrub it clean no matter how I try, a broken doorbell, and an entryway currently crammed with half-fishing upholstery projects.

    But do our friends turn up their noses at our invitations? They do not! They jump to accept them! To be perfectly honest, I used to think our reputation as hosts was contingent on my background as a caterer: I thought we were buying their happiness with luscious homemade food. Then I had an accident that left me in bandages right before a giant party and had to serve things we could buy cheap at the grocery store, and our guests were just as happy and just as lavish in their praise.

    And I realized that our reputation as good hosts was mostly based on inviting people over and on being relaxed and happy to see them despite having such a modest, sometimes untidy home, on issuing invitations despite sometimes having to phrase it “Listen, we’d love to have you but I’m kinda broke this week; what if I cook and you bring wine?,” despite having to say “Hey, the doorbell’s still busted so don’t ring, just come on in!”

    The Dorito was the turning point for me. Some friends were coming over and I hadn’t really had time or the energy to do my usual frenzied clean-til-I-get-cross preparation. So I did one quick sweep and tidy, then turned down the lights and called it good.

    As I put out a modest tray of food, I noticed a Dorito under the couch (which we still had lo those many months ago), so far under I only noticed it from an unlikely vantage point, so far under I’d have to haul out the broom again to get it out.

    But if I missed a whole goddamned Dorito while I was sweeping, what else did I miss? I considered that, and then I made an uncharacteristic and weirdly life-changing decision: I decided not to look for more evidence of my own perceived insufficiency.

    I decided not to stretch my aching back to clean up more thoroughly, I decided not to crane my neck to see what else I’d failed to clean up, I decided to ignore that Dorito and hope my guests would, too. And they did. And we had such a wonderful evening.

    That dumb everyday event, and my own reaction to it, has made me a much more relaxed host, and made it so much easier for me to enjoy my own parties and gatherings. It made me realize that no one else cared as much about the concrete details of a party as the host does; the guests are there to see you and to see each other and they don’t notice the things about your home that frustrate and embarrass you, or if they do notice those things, the things don’t have the same weight for your guests as they do for you.

    Your guests don’t care about the Dorito, whether it’s a literal Dorito that’s easy to pick up or a figurative Dorito like my clumsy homemade ottomans or your donated couch. They care about you.

    1. littlehuntingcreek +29 May 2, 2014 4:19 pm

       Dogs are really handy “clean up” helpers and will take care of any stray Doritos for you. Cats OTOH are no help at all

       1. rhymeswitheight +21 May 2, 2014 7:26 pm

          When my dog died, one of the most tangible ways I noticed his absence (I am not as heartless as this makes me sound, I love my pup and he was the best dog in the entire universe) was that when I dropped food, I had to PICK IT UP MYSELF. Instead of him immediately sensing that a crumb had made contact with the floor and coming to lick it up.

          1. LeastBittern +5 May 3, 2014 8:27 am

             So sad!

    2. CaptainNancy +22 May 2, 2014 4:31 pm

       Is it telling if I read this and think “Well, Elsa is Emily, of course YOUR friends would come over anyway, of course YOUR friends care about YOU.” ?

       Yeah… I might copy this somewhere I can read it a few times.

       1. elsamac +40 May 2, 2014 4:40 pm

          Is it also telling if sometimes I have a crisis of confidence in which I believe that our friends are only coming over because they love The Fella, and that they tolerate me because he loves me so much? Well, yeah.

          Because we’re human persons (I mean, no judgment if you’re not; I happen to be) and we have these feelings inside us that don’t make sense most of the time, and often don’t connect with reality.

          And getting these feelings out into the sunlight shows their true nature and takes the sting away, which is exactly the same logic as having friends over despite one’s private conviction that one’s home is too shamefully shabby: when we hide clutch that perceived failure or inadequacy to ourselves and never let anyone else look, of course we persist in believing it to be awful. But when someone else looks and accepts it, it suddenly doesn’t seem so bad.

          I have been thinking a lot lately about the corrosive power of shame, and the opposing power of honesty. It’s been really powerful to take the things of which I am most deeply ashamed, which I’ve been hiding in some poisoned corner of myself, and tell one trusted beloved person about them. It leaches them of their power, it takes away their poison. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

          1. AmyJane +6 May 2, 2014 4:59 pm

             Yeah. It took my granddad to die for my nana to realise their friends liked her too. Do not be waiting for your other half to pop their clogs before you see love for yourself.

          2. mbculver +8 May 2, 2014 8:52 pm

             Holy wow, you and I are really alike! I’ve been fighting crises of confidence lately, and feeling Less Than my husband lately, and reading a lot of Brene Brown to combat shame lately. It is so much better to air out all the shames to someone – not only does it leach them of their power, it makes you realize how small and unimportant they were to begin with.

       2. elsamac +27 May 2, 2014 5:44 pm

          In fact, I still feel that way sometimes, which became strikingly clear to me when a friend struck a deal with me. The background: she doesn’t have cable and we do, so we have a standing date where she comes over for dinner and we watch a month’s worth of episodes of [Mad Men/Breaking Bad/whatever] I’ve DVRed.

          The deal: after a few months of the standing date, she said she couldn’t let me keep making her dinner every time. And now we have a routine: one month, I make dinner and she brings wine and dessert; the next month, she brings take-out – and whatever she’s bringing, it’s always delicious, opulent, lavish amounts chosen with obvious care and thought.

          Intellectually, I knew that just as I invited her over because I like her, she was coming not because she likes the shows or the food but because she likes me, and that the shows and the food are the trappings of the gathering, not the underlying reason.

          But when she insisted so happily, so excitedly, on contributing to these evenings, on making them a special treat for me, I realized that some sad little corner of my heart still thought I was bribing her into friendship with my cooking and my TV. And that little corner of my heart rejoiced at her kindness, at her eagerness. It was instructive to see my reaction to that.

          1. robot_dinosaur +16 May 2, 2014 7:13 pm

             Working on the part of my mind that knows my friends don’t just come over because we have a liquor cabinet and I feed them. Trying to, anyway.

             It’s like, an hour minimum on public transit for them. They wouldn’t do that if I sucked.

             1. elsamac +20 May 2, 2014 7:24 pm

                No reasonably well-functioning adult would ride a bus an hour for a drink. (A teenager? Maybe.) The drinks are incidental; they come to see you, and to see each other, and to be seen by you. They come together in fellowship and love, and you give them a place and a reason to do that. Hosting is an act of grace and of graciousness.

    3. kfpizzle +27 May 2, 2014 5:44 pm

       The Dorito metaphor is taking me everywhere.

    4. twobluebikes +14 May 2, 2014 5:51 pm

       This is so great. Nobody cares about the dorito. Love.

    5. libertinemenandscarletwomen +9 May 2, 2014 8:19 pm

       I just felt the need to let you know that I have been going back and forth between excited and stressed out over inviting people over next weekend–first time I’ll have had anyone over in a WHILE, and on the one hand, friends!, but on the other hand my apartment is so full of clutter and I haven’t cleaned my kitchen properly in *mumbletymumble* and I am also a member of the Broken Doorbell Club–and this comment made me feel SO much better about it and now I am going to endeavor to not stress out about the Dorito.

    6. mollyculetheory +19 May 2, 2014 8:24 pm

       My Dorito was realizing that neither my partner nor I (both under 5’7″) clean ANYTHING above eye-level. We were having some tall friends over, and suddenly paranoid about what they might see from their freakish Captain Stretch vantage points, I stalked around the apartment in 5 inch heels. Oh my god! So much dust! And then I said. “Whatever, I’m happy in my midget-clean house, I have dissolvable Zantac tabs, fuck the duster I’m making another signature cocktail instead.”

    7. plspassthePinot +5 May 2, 2014 10:11 pm

       PREACH! BF and I hosted Thanksgiving for some international friends who had never been to one. I was excited and cooked all my favorite things and then about an hour before bf attempted to put together this table we pulled from storage for a dining area and guess what? We didn’t grab the bag w the screws/bolts! So, we piled up books and a jumbo pack of Costco paper towels and put the desktop on it and I set that ish up like a feast table. I could laugh our life hack; and our friends laughed; and then we had dinner and it we had a fantastic time! Pt being – real friends won’t judge you; they’re excited for your company. And always laugh at yourself.

27. Doctor Jay +9 May 2, 2014 4:14 pm

    Well, I want to start by saying I get what lots of you are saying about LW2. Why should she put her wants and needs behind that of her husbands? There’s no good reason for that, and it seems like she might be downplaying her own desires and dreams for the sake of his. This upsets you. I get it.

    And, I think you are forgetting that childcare is really expensive. Expensive enough that lots of the jobs he might take during the day would leave little left once the childcare they would have to get is paid. This is the logic that keeps many women at home during the first 5 years of their own kidlet’s life. He is contributing economically to the family. Kids are expensive (but worth it!).

    1. elldubs +37 May 2, 2014 4:44 pm

       “Having a parent at home is so great after school.”

       So it sounds like dude is probably solely responsible for childcare from what, 3:30 until the LW gets home from work? He has time to pick up a part time job to contribute the downpayment/new carpet/matching furniture fund.

    2. blueblazes11 +40 May 2, 2014 5:04 pm

       You make a good point. I have a close friend exactly like LW2 except she is a photographer and her husband is an aspiring filmmaker and novelist. She had a steady, but not lucrative, day job when they started having kids, so they decided that he would stay home and do the child care. They had priced out how well-paying of a job he would need to land to cover care for two little kids, and in their part of the country, it made more financial sense for him to do childcare and work on his creative stuff in his free time. He wasn’t bringing in any income but he was saving them several thousand in daycare costs.

       Well, fast-forward to today. The kids are in school all day. She is still working a day job. And he… is still at home all day and not bringing in a dime. He has “projects” all over their house and yard that, let’s face it, he didn’t finish while he was busy with the kids and still isn’t finishing now.

       And maybe I would be OK with this if it didn’t mean that their kids, a boy and a girl, didn’t have to share a closet-sized bedroom in a 600-sq-ft rental house with a yard full of junk cars. What happens when they hit puberty? What about those 6 months last year when they had no glass in their bedroom window – just a tarp duct-taped over a hole?

       Her husband always convinces her that he is right on the cusp of “making it” with whatever project, and if she will just give him more free time (ie, take care of the kids on the weekends too) or give him money to buy a better camera, he will finally get that book deal. And she does. I consider him emotionally abusive. He doesn’t yell or hit, but his choosing not to have an income gives him complete control over her time and autonomy- because if she doesn’t work they will literally starve.

       Obviously just thinking about them gets me ALL HET UP.

       1. irkdeshou +11 May 2, 2014 6:47 pm

          Having been the friend who watched this situation, and also having been somewhat involved in one of these situations, it can get pretty thorny. I’ve been the one to ask a person “so… are you sure you want to be with this guy? You don’t have to be with him forever, you know.” When the family’s being held hostage financially it can seem like there’s no way out and he has all the control, but there’s always a way out. Even if it means your friend leaning on her family or friends for help during transition time, it is possible to have childcare in the case that a divorce has to happen. It’s not like he’s going to have much money to hire a lawyer in the case of that eventuality, and after the divorce, he’ll have to get a job to pay the child support the government’s going to slap on him.

          I’m not saying all of this has to or should happen – I’m saying that making the calculations and plotting it out gives your friend leverage when he says “oh just one more week and I’ll have my big break” again. If she has to say “look if things don’t change, we’re over” then he’ll probably reply that she can’t survive on her own without him, and then she’ll be able to say: yes she can.

          And TBH if he replies “you can’t survive without me” that is a reason to get a divorce anyway because then he’s outright admitting that he doesn’t care to compromise or aid the family any more than sitting around and junking up the yard.

          Sorry if that reply got all serious but I think the most important thing people in relationships can do is consider every option and be honest with themselves about whether they need to leave.

          1. blueblazes11 +8 May 2, 2014 7:52 pm

             I really appreciate your thoughtful reply. I have often wondered if I should sit down with this friend and just tell her what her relationship looks like to an outsider.

             I mean, I am 100% a believer that no one can really see into another person’s marriage. I don’t know all the dynamics at play here. But when I ask her if she can have lunch with me on a Saturday and she says “No, xxxxx needs me to watch the kids so he can research his book,” I’d like to be able to point out that he has all day every weekday for that, and he can probably hold down the fort for two hours while we have some girl time.

             1. irkdeshou +8 May 2, 2014 7:59 pm

                Yeah, some outside insight can really help when a person is in a situation like the relationship you’re describing. If she doesn’t want any, she can always decline input, but speaking from experience here… sometimes when you’ve got doubts in your head that you’re trying to stuff down, and someone talks to you and echoes those same sentiments you’ve been repressing, it gives a lot of validation to your feelings. And in some cases, it helps a person give more weight to those doubts they’ve been stifling.

                I also admit to getting super-wary of a person who dominates a relationship by controlling their SO’s spare time and limiting the opportunities they have to see friends/take in outside influences/get freedom/etc. That can run parallel to a lot of psychological abuse that I’ve seen way too much of.

                But hey, if it’s just a matter of your friend talking serious with him and him not realizing how thin she’s been worn down, it might not be to that level. Relationships are horribly complicated and layered. That’s why light from outside is important, because it helps clarify all the stuff that’s hard to bring into focus.

    3. D_e_x +20 May 2, 2014 5:12 pm

       It’s possible, but the way the letter is written, it’s pretty clear that the dude spends a ton of time not parenting but working on his music ‘career,’ which seems to be earning him roughly zero dollars per hour after expenses. Surely he could find some other job where some of that non-parenting time could earn him a non-zero sum of money.

       Even failing that, he could take the time when his wife is home and do some basic repairs/improvements to their place while she is home or even while looking after the kid. I was and still am home with our son a lot, and now that he is no longer an infant, I can get some basic stuff done that makes our lives better.

    4. thebellewitch +31 May 2, 2014 5:15 pm

       I’ve been thinking about this a lot in my own life, and I grew up with a Mom who stayed home even after both her kids are in school, and I am definitely not a person to say, “OK, they’re in kindergarten! Get a job!!” There is a lot of work to be done in a home while the kids are away, plus personal time, volunteer time, etc. Childcare and domestic work are totally economic contributions, 1000% agree.

       What’s important, though, is that both halves of the couple feel they’re contributing fairly, and that life is actually humming along okay. If they’re living in a cluttered house with lots of to-do projects and are financially strapped, he needs to pitch in on that while the kiddo is at school. Otherwise, it’s like they’re both working parents, except he doesn’t actually bring home any money.

       1. RocktheDebit +11 May 2, 2014 6:32 pm

          Yeah, I tend to cut slack to stay-at-home parents who have kids who aren’t in school yet, or who have special needs. But if the kid’s in school? It’s time to contribute to the household, either by doing work in the house (I don’t know if LW2’s husband does much of the cooking/cleaning, but just from the way she describes the house, I doubt it. If you clean a house often enough, you start to care about the things that don’t work correctly.) or by getting a part-time job at the music store or tutoring kids in guitar or something.

       2. mirandawmeyer +20 May 2, 2014 7:14 pm

          Right. My mom stayed at home until I went to college, and she still doesn’t work for pay, but you know what she does do? She handles everything logistical about my parents’ home. She handles all their finances, pretty much (the day-to-day stuff–obviously they make larger decisions together). She handles loads of logistics for my dad, who works like a motherfucker. She does major strategic work pro bono for a nonprofit. She is the president of the building’s board. She is contributing in SO MANY WAYS that aren’t financial but that make my dad’s working life run more smoothly (meaning, he doesn’ t–i.e., they don’t–have to pay someone to do that work) and is doing loads of work that makes their lives better overall.

          I get this can sound super-patriarchal (especially with the helping him out with work thing), but we’re talking about ways that stay-at-home spouses can contribute to the family, and the family’s earnings, as a whole. She’s doing that. He doesn’t take her for granted. It works, gender schmender.

28. spoboebot3000 +45 May 2, 2014 4:20 pm

    As a full-fledged, highly degreed (with the debt to show for it) classically trained musician, I have ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS been advised that I will need a job to support my music habit. My primary teachers used give the statistic that 8% of musicians can support themselves on music alone, the other 92% of us have to supplement ourselves and maybe, possibly, someday, IF we are extraordinarily lucky, we too can support ourselves on music, but the straight reality is that odds are not good. Even if we do get to be the lucky 8%, that’s not going to last forever because music is physical exertion and the body does break down. Maybe you win an audition and can live as a musician for a year before you lose that job. Maybe you have a one hit wonder and go completely in debt to make a second album that never has any profits. These things happen all the time.

    Re-reading the letter, I think Mallory’s second premise is on the nose. There’s so much more to music than simply performing and you can make a decent living in the industry itself if you network beyond playing gigs. I do believe that the husband works insanely hard but that’s the crazy thing about music, at some level it doesn’t matter how hard you work at making a living at performing, what matters more is your lucky breaks. The most talented musicians I personally know in the industry, aren’t the ones making the huge money at performing. They make a good portion of their money teaching or otherwise working in the industry, not performing alone and even then, the only reason any of them own a house is because of the combined income with their spouse.

    I’m lucky, I get to ride a desk in an accounting department by day, play my music and teach my student (i hope to have more than one someday) by night, and fund raise for my orchestra and play wedding gigs on weekends. I have a fairly self-sufficient step-kid in the house and there’s no way I could balance all this with a younger kid that needs more care. I hope the letter writer can strike a balance with her husband on this and I hope the husband finds success with his passion.

    1. anachronistique +9 May 2, 2014 8:08 pm

       Alllllll of this. My mom is classically trained and was an actual working musician for years, but between chronic illness and the onset of arthritis (she’s a violinist) she cannot play anymore. But, you know, she also worked as a copyist, and wrote grants for organizations, and taught lessons, and worked as a school music teacher… she did a lot of stuff in addition to playing gigs.

       1. spoboebot3000 +4 May 2, 2014 9:34 pm

          Working musicians are among the hardest workers I’ve known, from the rockers to the classical players. Always 6 balls in the air and more to come. I’m sorry to hear she can’t play any more but her work lives on through her students and you. I’m personally terrified of the time coming when my body breaks down and I can’t play. Being an oboist, we typically get strokes that stop our playing careers.

    2. mbculver +17 May 2, 2014 8:58 pm

       Funny you say this, because my husband is a trained classical violinist who decided not to pursue a symphony career after we were married. He decided this because he wanted time with me in the evenings, and because he had a growing studio and could see himself as a music educator.

       18 years later, he is the orchestra director at our local high school, directs the pit for our high school musical, and plays violin duets with our daughter at home and around town. He’s found a way to direct his passion into his career, and it’s wonderful to see and share in.

       1. spoboebot3000 +10 May 2, 2014 9:28 pm

          “Plays violin duets with our daughter”

          D’awwwww, this gives me the most warm fuzzies ever! I’m a wierdo musician outlier born to a tone-deaf family (although my grandfather was quite the accomplished accordianist in his day) so the thought of playing duets with my loved ones just pleases me to no end. Total musician success story, the whole lot of you. I’m with him on the not pursuing a symphony career thing though, that is an incredibly stressful and busy job.

29. Mims +5 May 2, 2014 4:27 pm

    Mallory’s advice to LW2 rings true to me, too, but I’m wondering what if the genders were reversed?

    If this were a man writing in, and instead of exactly the same complaints, his issue was: “My wife just was not raised to the same standards of cleanliness and cooking and super-momming as my own mom raised me. And we agreed when we got married that it was very important to her to stay home with our kids and also to pursue her passion for writing, and I said that I would support her in that. But now, a few years in, I just am so unhappy with our not-super-clean-house and not-amazing-dinners and all the amazing-mom-crafts she doesn’t do with our children. She spends a lot of time doing freelance writing projects and she loves it and works hard at it and brings in some money, but not enough to make a big dent. I’d also like to live in a nicer house, which we could if she would just work full-time, and since she’s never going to be a famous writer or amazing homemaker shouldn’t she do that? I hate having my buddies over because she just doesn’t do a great job making the house look nice or providing good food.”

    Is this a fair parallel? When I read @snaxstax’s comment: “if you say to your husband “The state of our house makes me feel bad about my life” and he responds with ANYTHING but “How can we make it better,” the Toast, I’m sure, will be happy to descend on your home to make him pay and/or spackle some shit for you” I just tried to imagine the reverse:

    “If you say to your wife “The state of your cleaning and cooking makes me feel bad about my life” and she responds with ANYTHING but “How can we make it better,” the Toast, I’m sure, will be happy to descend on your home to make her pay and/or cook some shit for you.”

    I realize that reverse has been the dominant cultural narrative for time immemorial, but if it wasn’t fair to the wife then (and now), is it fair to this husband now?

    That said, I agree with Mallory’s points.

    1. mckinleaf +22 May 3, 2014 2:21 am

       There is a slight difference between “the state of the house” and “the state of YOUR cleaning”.

       Because the second is really personal (YOU aren’t good enough), whereas the first has options that the couple could decide on together: learn to be handy, move to a newer house, pay a neighbourhood kid to do the yard, have the husband play at a carpenter’s houseparty in return for having shelves put up…

    2. nonvolleyball +11 May 5, 2014 1:53 pm

       I think there’s a way to gender-flip the letter in which we’re equally sympathetic to the hypothetical day-job-having dude-spouse, but I’m not sure this version hits the mark–a couple of the signifiers in your version (“homemaker,” “buddies”) are like dog-whistles for my righteous feminist indignation. if it’s truly about “let’s make this more of a partnership,” then the genders of the respective participants (regardless of who’s making more money or shirking their household responsibilities) shouldn’t matter. after all, I know plenty of same-sex couples for whom these things are just as much of a hotly contested issue (or should be, because of a deep systemic imbalance).

30. Ashley +22 May 2, 2014 4:29 pm

    Not that you need an 84th comment confirming this but omg Mallory. KILLING IT on that second letter. Just killing it. Every slow-clap gif in the world.

31. madgeylou +48 May 2, 2014 4:34 pm

    TAKE TO THE SEA.

    1. madgeylou +24 May 2, 2014 4:34 pm

       ok, not super helpful, but the entitlement coming off LW2’s husband is making me want to punch something.

    2. chartreusan +10 May 2, 2014 8:38 pm

       That and “you can’t say “I’m fine” when you’re shrinking” are two pieces of Mallory wisdom I need to embroider on throw pillows or samplers.

    3. Danny +2 May 2, 2014 9:47 pm

       That’s your answer to everything!

32. mkpatter +46 May 2, 2014 4:40 pm

    LW2, you always want to move because you’re unhappy, and you think that a change of surroundings will mean a change of circumstance. It never does. You will not be happy until you ovary up and talk to your husband about bringing in a little extra money so that you can have some downtime too. He is not a little boy, he’s a grownup with a kid. He will figure it out.

33. zizzivivizz +30 May 2, 2014 5:10 pm

    OH MY GOD. These sentences right here? “I reject wholly and out of hand the idea that his creativity is bigger and better and more important than yours simply because it consumes more of your family’s emotional and financial resources. … You do not have to make your creativity literally smaller than his so that he can take up more space than you.” This made me tear up. This was my marriage. Ok, like 70% of LW2’s letter was my marriage (minus the kid and the house part, plus some other stuff). Ugh, OUCH. It’s a thing I figured out in counseling after the marriage was basically over. It doesn’t make my ex (or this woman’s husband) a monster, but it definitely represents the investment in this romanticized idea of what creativity and art have to look like in order to be meaningful, and seriously, fuck that.

    I’m rooting for you, LW2! So hard.

34. blushingflower +32 May 2, 2014 5:10 pm

    LW2, your parents did not become handy home-fixer-uppers by magic. It happened because it was important to them, so they invested the time and energy into it. Your husband can do the same.
    I think Nicole’s point about starting with something easy, small and inexpensive is the way to go, because just saying “honey, I am unhappy about the state of our house” is too big. Also, consider talking to your landlord, depending on the individual/company and the repair, he may be willing to pay for the supplies if you do the labor, especially if it is an improvement to the home. New linoleum will make you happier AND increase the property value.
    A marriage is a partnership, a team. And on a team, sometimes you do things that you don’t want to do because they will make the team better. Sometimes that means pulling the weeds even though you don’t want, because you know it matters to your partner. Sometimes it means being on the lookout for part-time work at the performance venues where you have gigs, and taking a couple of shifts a week as a barista or bartender or busboy so that you have a little bit more money in the bank, so that you can have matching dishes (which don’t have to be expensive, they sell perfectly nice dishes at Target and Homegoods and the like) or just a cushion for when something goes wrong.
    A good partner doesn’t want you to swallow your feelings so that they can follow their dreams, a good partner cares as much about your happiness and fulfillment as their own, and is willing to make sacrifices on your behalf, not just their own. Your marriage should matter to him as much as his music, and he should be willing to put hustle into make it work too.

    1. beatrizcentury +4 May 2, 2014 6:10 pm

       I’m going to second your first part. I am not sure how I feel about a lot of this quite yet but I can tell you as someone who grew up with a mother who constantly talked about how much she hated the house, how dirty it was, etc etc. (there were lean times and both of my parents worked full-time, alot, etc.), please please please either get dude to fix it or move somewhere smaller or SOMETHING. Because that shit will tear you and possibly the little person IN the house up.

       BUT. Because of this, I became a pretty fuckin’ handy teenager/young adult (put in new floors! painted entire second floor! fixed bathroom! Garage painting and new front door!) and I was a dumbass teenager. Maybe go find some dumb teenagers to pay to do it? I’m not joking.

       1. blushingflower +4 May 2, 2014 9:02 pm

          Yeah, my parents’ house (the one I grew up in) needs a lot of work, and my mother (and father) don’t know where to start, and even though I don’t live there, it stresses me out, because I know it stresses my mother out. And because they are getting older and I would like them to move someplace smaller (and ideally also closer to me), but the amount of work the house needs means that isn’t going to happen any time soon, and I have horrible visions of having to deal with it when they are no longer able to.

35. Calliope +45 May 2, 2014 5:15 pm

    I am avoiding the emotional heft of this one, since I am about to be a stay-at-home wife (we have a 6-week-old, so I’m not saying I’m slacking . . . yet).

    But for a practical suggestion, my brother-in-law is a capital-C creative musician and composer, with an aversion to day jobs. Since he doesn’t have a long-suffering spouse, he busted his butt working at Starbucks to make his rent. Then, he got over his aversion to “diluting his art,” and booked a weekly gig playing guitar Sunday mornings at a local coffee house / bakery. That gig pays $50 for a 4-hour shift, plus tips, often running another $40-$50. But you know what else? The bakery has people coming in for wedding cake sampling, and they hear him play. He’s started booking cocktail-hour wedding gigs, at $200 per hour. That’s a lot of hours at Starbucks.

    So, I guess my point is, there’s something besides capital A-art and corporate druggery, if you’re an artist. Working your skills on a gig-basis, particularly if your partner’s job is proving health benefits, etc, can go a long way to supplementing the ol’ income. My brother-in-law still has a full-time food-service job, but he has disposable income for the first time in his life, and he’s beyond thrilled.

    Now for me, this is not an option, since I don’t have the skills, but it sounds like your husband might. It’s something to consider at any rate.

36. jfruh +88 May 2, 2014 5:47 pm

    Everything said here is correct but I am concerned that nobody is giving Mallory proper credit and approbation for “dubsteppist”

    1. highjump +11 May 2, 2014 6:38 pm

       I feel like we could be mining Mallory’s response here for important truths/phrases/terms for a long time to come.

37. mooneshine3 +8 May 2, 2014 5:49 pm

    ah so many feelings about LW2. I guess it comes down to quality of life for each person and the family as a whole. I work full time and my husband stays home with our 2-year old, we rent and don’t love it, but we are happy. So it works for us, but sounds like it doesn’t work for the LW (and SOOO many of the commenters!)

    1. anninyn +15 May 2, 2014 5:58 pm

       Oh, that would work fine. It would work fine if I felt the contribution was equal.

       But it sounds like the OP’s husband does not put in an equal contribution.

38. evieskye +30 May 2, 2014 6:06 pm

    All of my instructors in my (poetry!) MFA program made a point of banging into our heads the idea that we would need a real job to support our writing habits. One of my instructors taught classes, did medical billing part-time, and still wrote award-winning poetry books. They also went out of their way to tell us about the lives of famous poets: William Carlos Williams = doctor; Wallace Stevens = insurance dude. It was presented to us in a way that wasn’t “you can’t do this” but rather “here’s how you do what you love while still managing to eat and pay rent. you are not alone”

    1. madgeylou +12 May 2, 2014 7:44 pm

       yes!!! http://www.fastcompany.com/3022985/how-to-be-a-su…

       Philip Glass, Kurt Vonnegut, Einstein. All creative people who kept their day jobs.

       As Ives put it, if a composer “has a nice wife and some nice children, how can he let them starve on his dissonances?”

       1. mbculver +10 May 2, 2014 9:01 pm

          Ives was an insurance executive who laid the foundation for modern estate planning. And he did love his dissonances!

39. Linette +71 May 2, 2014 6:14 pm

    For LW2, I just want to throw this out there, because I feel like we’re coming down kind of heavy on the guy here.

    * Music can be your passion and an important career and all those things, it does not make him a man-child who never outgrew his garage band. It sounds like he is, in fact, working very hard at it as a career.

    * It also sounds like you have a lot of respect for the things that are important to him, and you are squashing your needs a bit to make room for his. WHICH IS ALSO OKAY. We make sacrifices for our partners, it does not make you a Bad Feminist to do this.

    * BUT he needs to do the same for you, and it does not sound like that is happening, or at the very least that you do not FEEL like it is happening, which is the same thing when it comes to your happiness. Having a nice house, having a home, is just as important to you as his music is to him, and you need to give it that amount of weight.

    * It is easy to dismiss wanting a nice home in the same way it is easy to dismiss a guy who wants to be in a rock band. And the general response here seems to be “Your wants are the only reasonable ones and his are completely unreasonable” which is just as bad as “his are worth fighting for and yours aren’t.” Let’s operate on the premise that your needs AND his needs are important and worth fighting for.

    * You’ve made it possible for him to have something very important to him, and that is a great thing. Explain that you do not feel you are getting as good as you give. And tell him what he can do to fix it.

    If he doesn’t get on board with that, then, by all means, misandry and flames and taking to the sea. But for my part, what I mostly see in your letter is the fear of claiming your needs are as important as his, which is not necessarily his fault. Nowhere in this letter do I see “I talked to him about it and he dismissed me.” I see “I feel petty for wanting what I want.”

    If he IS dismissing you, then okay, get mad. But if he just doesn’t realize how important this is to you because you’re not speaking up? Speak up. He loves you. You do a lot for him. I’m sure he is willing to put effort into your needs, too. Your needs are not petty, they are real, they are as real as any dream he has ever had. You have gotten behind a dream of his that – judging from this thread alone – most women not at all be okay with supporting. It’s his turn. And it is okay to tell him that you’re taking your turn now.

    1. logicbutton +27 May 2, 2014 6:43 pm

       Your points are good ones. However, we shouldn’t forget that this is probably one of the few places on the internet that is not automatically going to accept that his career is sacred and untouchable, and whose advice will try to get her to talk herself out of her perfectly valid feelings.

       Also, it’s true that we only have one side of the story, but the part that stood out to me (and was the focus of my comment above) was this: “He was so miserable when he was working a day job and doing music too, I thought we’d have to divorce.”

       I mean, maybe the LW’s a total asshole and would divorce someone just for being depressed, but assuming she isn’t… he was SO MISERABLE working a job that he allowed friction to seep into his marriage. His marriage, which should have been the bright spot in his life. His marriage, the entire reason he doesn’t have to have a day job now. She didn’t say that he was dismissing her, and I don’t know whether either of them would say that he is, but that remark was pretty telling.

       1. Linette +23 May 2, 2014 6:58 pm

          Sure, I just feel like feminism has a lot more to do with giving equal weight to each partner than The Woman Is Always Right, and I couldn’t help but feel that if the roles were reversed, and she was the one pursuing music, we’d be screaming in favor of her and telling her of course she shouldn’t have to get a part-time job just because HE wants stuff, she should do what makes her happy.

          I also don’t think we’d be mad at her for being unhappy in a job and “allowing” those feelings to seep into her marriage. Dude’s a person. When we are unhappy those feelings affect all parts of our lives. She’s unhappy now, and I’m sure it is putting tension into their relationship. Telling either of the people in this relationship that they “should” feel differently is not useful. We feel the way we feel. I’m on board with him needing to DO different things, and they can work out together how he can change what he’s doing to help her get what she needs, but being mad at him for wanting what he wants is unkind in the same way it would be unkind to be mad at her for wanting what she wants.

          I think there’s probably a happy medium between “His work is sacred, just suck it up” and “He’s a man-child who wants to be a rock star and is totally selfish for not feeling exactly the way you do about having a nice home, tell him to put down the guitar and go get a fucking job.” I was trying to get somewhere in that happy medium.

          1. jennycieplak +16 May 2, 2014 8:18 pm

             As a person who has gone to music school and knows a lot of people who are making a career in music, let me say this: EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM TEACHES ON THE SIDE. Every one of them. If you aren’t willing to do something to support your music-making, you’re only fooling yourself. The whole reason I stopped doing music full time was that I didn’t like teaching, and realized it was the only way to make ends meet unless I wanted to have some kind of drudgery job. But the point is, I made the decision and sucked it up. I guess the thing that upsets me about this article is that if this guy was living on his own, he would have to have a day job, but with his family situation he gets to take advantage of the ability to just do music. That doesn’t seem fair.

             1. Linette +10 May 2, 2014 8:33 pm

                Yeah, but . . . I mean, I can’t afford a house on my own. I can with my partner. Am I “taking advantage”? Or hey, without my partner, I couldn’t be a stay at home parent. With my partner, I can. I’m pretty sure I am not taking advantage, and neither is my partner taking advantage of me, if we both agreed that these were the respective contributions we wanted to make to the partnership.

                She says in the letter that she agreed to this arrangement, and that he does indeed make money with it, just not enough to support the kind of lifestyle she’d want. I’m sure he would make different decisions without his partner or his kid – so would we all – but I’m not sure that makes him inherently bad for taking what he is offered. I think she needs to get things that he offers her, too, but I don’t see why he needs to pretend he’s not in a supportive situation when he clearly is.

             2. Linette +19 May 2, 2014 8:37 pm

                Also, re: the childcare point, I feel like there’s a lot of focus on him getting to pursue a music career, and we’re blowing right past the bit where he’s the stay-at-home parent. It’s not like he’s sitting around the house jamming all day. He is contributing, and she may feel like he’s not contributing ENOUGH, or not contributing to the things she would like, but from LW2’s description this guy seriously does not strike me as the loser the comments at large are painting him as.

          2. amanita +13 May 2, 2014 9:01 pm

             Also I think there may be a bit of a straw(wo)man set up, as far as the screaming in favor of a hypothetical lady who is spending all her time on her band while she’s got kids and while her partner is scraping by to feed and support them all. I def have (not straight) (lady) couple friends who are going through similar situations and while nobody is perfect, I will say that the grown-up-women-in-bands I know are much, much more likely to make compromises and sacrifices for their partners and families. The dudes are much more likely to hold tight to their dreams at the exclusion of all else, including the well-being of their children.

             1. Linette +18 May 2, 2014 9:21 pm

                Yeah, that’s true. My point was simply that if this hypothetical lady existed, and felt bad all the time about putting her dreams first, we would be on her side. I agree that guys tend to be more selfish, but “more selfish” in this context means “not voluntarily making sacrifices no one asked for”. I agree that women are way more likely to feel they need to do that than men do, but . . . I don’t think EITHER of them should. I don’t think women should feel guilty. I don’t think men should feel guilty.

                I guess what I’m saying is that while I agree that women are more likely to make unasked for compromises and sacrifices, I don’t think the solution is to start being angry at men for not feeling MORE guilty, I think the solution is for women to feel LESS guilty (well, and for society at large to stop telling them they should feel guilty, because it’s pretty hard to pull that one off by your onesie). I don’t think it’s unreasonable to pursue what you want to pursue and expect your partner to support you in that – for either of them.

                It just seems like everyone was very quick to decide that this guy was one of THOSE guys, and from what the LW2 actually said about him, this did not seem like the case. And if that’s so, then the advice to tell him he’s a selfish jerk is in no way useful to her in solving her problem.

                It’s kind of like when you have a break-up where no one was the bad guy, and everyone wants to talk about how much men suck and are jerks who can’t commit. That may be the case, but if it’s not what you’re actually going through, then you’re stuck with no advice you can use, just lots of “men are jerks.” It seemed to me that this man is not a jerk – he’s someone she loves and whose dreams she was willing to support and whom she is quick to say works very hard – and if that is the case, then the advice is not “get rid of your jerk-man” but “hey, maybe here are some ways to broach the problem you are experiencing with your perfectly reasonable partner whom you love, and who may not as yet be aware that the problem exists.”

             2. twobluebikes +6 May 2, 2014 9:38 pm

                Good points, in my view 🙂

             3. Bryn (Plus Others) +23 May 2, 2014 9:54 pm

                Yes, this!

                When the entire cultural narrative is saying ‘You must sacrifice for your man!’ and you are sacrificing for your man and you are miserable, I think it is super-hard to just say: Wow that is one fucked up cultural narrative, what if we just laid it all out and saw what each of us is willing to do for the other?

                But the alternative is indeed to saddle guys with their own cultural narrative of ‘You must sacrifice for your woman!’ and … yah, why can’t we just do less sacrifice, more teamwork and compromise?

                Also, I am a stay-at-home parent of two and my husband is out there working the horrible corporate job, and I am also an aspiring writer. So is he sacrificing everything for my writing career while I refuse to get a job? Or am I sacrificing life in the big bold world full of adult people to stay at home cleaning poo off the toilet while he gets to have a career? Or are we both just, you know, people making some choices and if I feel miserable about mine (sometimes I do) or he feels miserable about his (sometimes he does), we can talk about it?

                I really feel for LW2, because it sucks not having the nice things you want. But it seems like the solution to that is to ask for what she needs from her partner — and then, yes, if he blows her off or whatever because of Teh Music, then misandry away.

    2. momoulton22 +17 May 2, 2014 8:48 pm

       I think a lot of the advice on this thread is about answering that first fear–“I feel petty for wanting what I want”–and reassuring LW2 that it’s not petty, in fact. I like your comment because it offers a practical next step. Assuming the husband isn’t a jackass, they need a framework to have a conversation as two people who are probably both a little insecure, a little scared, a little selfish, and a little self-righteous–in other words, human.

       1. Linette +7 May 2, 2014 9:11 pm

          That’s all I was going for. It actually seems like she might have a good set-up, just having a rough time with communicating right now, and if that IS the case, then just hating on the dude isn’t useful. She seems like a smart lady; I’m sure if he were just a Grade A Douchebag she would’ve been out the door a long time ago.

    3. amanita +18 May 2, 2014 8:52 pm

       You know, I can tell you a lot of my initial response is b/c off the top of my head I can think of 8 women I know who could’ve written this letter at various stages in their relationships and life, and it brings me close to rage-weeping b/c it is NOT fair, it is NOT split equitably, even the dudes who are “staying at home” and “taking care of the kids” are not actually doing those things, they just SAY they are. (You run in lefty/ arty/ activisty circles and you may see a lot of this.) So. Maybe this guy is not like those guys, but I bet a lot of people have experience like mine, have histories like mine, and are much less likely to cut a dude some slack.

       1. Linette +6 May 2, 2014 9:15 pm

          Oh, yeah, I can totally see that. I wasn’t trying to imply that this guy is doing everything right or anything like that, and I’m sure it is absolutely true that the patriarchal bullshit is working its way in here, because it does that. I’m sure he has much less of a hard time voicing his needs and that he feels fine doing so and pleased to get what he wants, while she is clearly guilt-ridden for wanting things at all, much less asking for them. I was only trying to suggest that he may in fact be a reasonable dude and that his life choices do not immediately imply to me that he is not.

          I’m going with her description of the set-up regarding whether he cares for the kids, because it actually seems like she’s pretty good with the way their life is set up, and I assume she’d say so if she felt like he wasn’t actually putting in the work to do the things they agreed he’d do. A lot of her upset seems to come from feeling like she shouldn’t want what she wants, and that IS a patriarchal construct, but it doesn’t exist because he is failing at life. Or because she is.

    4. blunderbusst +8 May 2, 2014 9:29 pm

       I was gonna say that, and then you did, so I don’t have to. So, you know, good job.

       My mom liked to say, “Your partner wants to please you,” and I liked to believe her. It’s easy to get all riled up about our partners not meeting our needs: we sometimes forget that we have to communicate those needs to them so they know how to meet them. This is at the core of so much co-habitational resentment.

       I’d like to believe that if LW2 said, “Husband, this arrangement worked for a while, but it isn’t working for me anymore, and I’d like to talk about how to readjust so our lives are more equitable,” he’d be like, “You bet, babe. We’re a team!”

       So here’s another vote for “Your needs are important, so go communicate them!”

40. twobluebikes +6 May 2, 2014 6:47 pm

    Re: LW2.

    I think a long-running relationship requires partners to shift to accomodate one another over time. Maybe at the outset, you felt okay supporting your partner’s music career, but now, it feels like a burden. Talk about that. If your relationship is strong – and it seems like it likely is – I bet you can find ways to change the terms of your partnership in small ways that won’t bring down the entire structure of things.

    I hear you on not loving the place you live. Is there a city where you could do your job with lower rents? That is one way to raise your standard of living without wining the lottery. It’s a fact of life for many of my friends – we don’t live in houses like we grew up in (I live in an extraordinarly expensive place, not New York for San Fransisco, but still).

    But, there are any number of ways you can make a shit rental look less shit. Are you allowed to paint the walls? Or, would you be willing to take the time to paint them white again when you move out? Because, fresh paint, that’s a rad thing. Can you put out some potted plants? Because that is cheap and easy, and makes a place look much happier (I’ve done this! It works!). I bought a new toilet seat for a rental once – it was amazing how much that simple thing raised my morale. It’s worth talking to your dude about how you feel – he may have no idea! And even if he does, he might be like, oh hey, I’ll try to learn these things for you – I could learn to put a new shiny fixture in the bathroom to make it look nicer (not hard!), for example.

    I am the full-time creative in my partnership. I work as a freelance writer – I made just enough last year, to say, okay, I can keep doing this. I’m getting more work, better paying, whatnot. If that trend stopped, I’d have to go get a day job. But also, I do the management shit that keeps our household runnning – banking, taxes, cat food, bathroom cleaning, whathaveyou.

    It has to be a partnership, and it has to feel right for both people. So if it doesn’t, negotiate. Don’t necessarily take to the sea straightaway, but talk about the ways you might make your relationship happier between you. Because it might be easier than you think.

41. haleymshaffer +11 May 2, 2014 7:15 pm

    Did no one else recognise the screen-cap from The Castle, which is more or less the pinnacle of Australian cinema??? Well chosen, Mallory and Nicole, well chosen.

    1. molly +4 May 2, 2014 7:39 pm

       Tell him he’s dreaming!

42. molly +2 May 2, 2014 7:43 pm

    While I do recognise that the cost of living in Australia is enormous compared to the cost of living in the United states, I am still jealous that your rent amounts to just $750 a month, when my fairly nice, but small little house in a kind of iffy suburb is costing me $320 a *week* in this so-called ‘lucky country’. That said, Mallory, I would visit you, if only I had the means.

    1. alicia +13 May 2, 2014 9:00 pm

       Not just you! My reaction to this whole column was basically “$735?!? In the BAY Area? In an apartment you moved into A YEAR AGO? WITH A CAT?!?!?!?!?

       Except the all caps isn’t tall enough.

       1. molly +17 May 2, 2014 9:19 pm

          oh good, i was worried i was the only one who was like “yeah, cool, husband is a loser whatever LET’S TALK ABOUT YOUR RIDICULOUSLY CHEAP RENT WOW”

    2. mbculver +6 May 2, 2014 9:04 pm

       I’m sure there are many of us in the States who are jealous of Mallory’s magic $750-a-month rent. She must get that great deal by being Really Awesome. Or by placing strategic hexes on her landlord.

       1. alicia +3 May 2, 2014 9:06 pm

          Two scenarios come to mind:
          1. She intentionally left off the leading digit (1735 not 735) to make the story more relatable to those not in NY/SF/London/Australia
          2. By “landlord” she means “Dad”

    3. malloryelis +10 May 2, 2014 11:02 pm

       It’s a studio with no windows to the outside world (only windows into a windowless hallway), but yeah, it’s still pretty cheap, rent-wise.

       1. molly +10 May 3, 2014 12:43 am

          that actually sounds kind of bleak. is your sole light source a single bulb hanging from a rusted chain in the ceiling, swaying in an invisible breeze and casting long, uncomfortably sinister shadows across the room?

       2. molly +8 May 3, 2014 12:47 am

          is there a corner of the apartment that the cat will refuse to be in, where a very mild stench you cannot place as anything other than ‘bad news’ lingers forever, despite all attempts to deodorise?

       3. molly +8 May 3, 2014 12:49 am

          do neighbours slam there doors on your approach, refusing to make eye contact in a way that makes you believe you they know something you do not?

       4. molly +22 May 3, 2014 12:50 am

          i think i’ve convinced myself your apartment is haunted. move immediately.

43. Absotively +6 May 2, 2014 8:08 pm

    I am not disagreeing with any of the advice so far to letter writer #2, but I do have one thing to add: maybe try budgeting? I mean, obviously this will not magically fix any of the relationship-y stuff, but it might at least help with figuring out to set aside some money for the matching dishes from Target that someone mentioned. And it would maybe provide an opening to discuss the money side of this issue.

    And my experience with budgeting is that I somehow have just a little bit more money to spend on stuff I want when I pay attention to my budget, even though it feels like I’m not spending much less on other things, and I’m putting more into savings. I’m lucky that my budget isn’t super tight, but I do think it would still help if it was.

    1. Absotively +4 May 2, 2014 8:13 pm

       Er, this is not to say that I think that LW2 is being fiscally irresponsible now if they don’t budget. Just, although many folks do really well at handling money without a formal budget, I personally have found that having a formal budget makes it easy to do a teensy bit better, and I recommend it.

       Also, I am thinking of virtual-envelope-type budgeting, à la YNAB, not the other kind where you plan to have the same allocations every month and never adjust them.

    2. molly +2 May 2, 2014 9:20 pm

       is your name a reference to anansi boys. say it is so!

       1. Absotively +5 May 2, 2014 9:34 pm

          Nope! Though it might have been influenced by Anansi Boys subconciously, I guess.

          Also Gaiman spelled it differently. I think his was “Absa-tively!”

          1. molly +2 May 2, 2014 10:39 pm

             not gonna pretend i’m not disappointed.

44. corfay +4 May 2, 2014 8:37 pm

    Mallory gives the most poetic advice!

45. ipomoea +10 May 2, 2014 10:28 pm

    Oh, LW2. Mr. Ipo has the talent to be a Creative Type, but I think what stopped him was growing up with a mom who was always broke– money would come in, she would spend it on some pie-in-the-sky plan, and they’d be BROKE again. He also looked really hard at the lives his Creative Type friends were living– the comedians and musicians on tours that involved floors and shitty clubs and filth and long drives, and he realized that that wasn’t compatible with the home life he wanted, one with kids and a spouse and a home that wasn’t a health hazard (at one point pre-kids we lived in an apartment that literally had such a mold/moisture problem we had mushrooms growing out of the carpet in the living room and a landlord who wouldn’t fix it). Like, has Mr. LW2 sat down and talked with you about what he realistically envisions as his future in ten years? Five years? His home, his family, his finances? Does he want to go on vacations or if there’s a family emergency on your side, can your family survive if you have to take time off to help? (My mom’s parents passed away and it was basically a full-time job for two months for her to deal with their belongings, estate, and all that stuff.) Creativity is important, and exercising it is important, but Mr. Ipo has managed to still be able to write and play music while holding down a full-time job, he just isn’t counting on his music to be the Big Ticket Out. Instead, he’s playing and writing to make himself happy.

    Of all our Creative Type friends, only ONE has been able to support herself with her creativity, and even then, she’s still living with roommates and picking up shifts at the bar to cover incidentals. Being the Creative Type is rough, and to be a shitty gut-punching mom, it can be really shitty on the kids of Creative Types, too.

46. eleventysix +2 May 2, 2014 10:49 pm

    I am very late to this conversation because work was a thing this morning, but I would like to join the chorus of approval for Mallory’s advice for LW2.

    But I would also like to find a way for this advice to get back to the actual LW of the Billfold piece from a while ago that made me blind with rage while reading it (it’s basically the “Big C Creative” husband’s point of view).

    1. nicoledieker +1 May 3, 2014 12:34 am

       I, too, thought of two Billfold pieces while reading this — the one you reference and the other one where a wife/mother asks for advice because she wants a real grownup house. (I don’t see a place to embed links, so here it is: http://thebillfold.com/2014/04/impatient-for-the-…

       In that case, the advice was “be patient, save money, your time will come.” That could also be the advice here. It could be the advice in my own life right now, honestly.

       BUT WHAT IF OUR TIME NEVER COMES?????????

47. mckinleaf +7 May 3, 2014 2:24 am

    Can I suggest barter?

    The husband trading music lessons for housepainting, for example?

    The Australian equivalent of craigslist has a section for skillswapping.

48. Slanket +3 May 3, 2014 3:52 am

    I’m so late on this! But I really wanted to thank you for that 2nd response. I’m a musician dating a musician, and I really, really identify with the LW for feeling small-c creative sometimes. I think I just needed a reminder that having a non-creative day job doesn’t make me less of an artist…definitely some feelings I’ve been struggling with.

49. quinnrosenberg +5 May 3, 2014 1:30 pm

    I’m a freelance writer and I have a almost full time job in the food industry. My girlfriend is an artist and is about to enter into beauty school so she can be a hair stylist to start being self sufficient.
    We would both love to be creative full time creative but that is simple not possible and we dont even have a kid to worry about. Your husband has no excuse.

50. literaltrousersnake +14 May 4, 2014 1:36 pm

    I didn’t put this here earlier because I was basically hoping to say it later and get overlooked, but person number two’s dude is basically my father, and he absolutely tried to wreck my mum that way… And then she gave him the boot and became a moderately famed and successful Canadian painter and somewhat notorious force for the arts, while he did not. So. Yeah.

51. Sarah +8 May 4, 2014 6:47 pm

    My father is a stay at home dad. I am 20 and he has been doing it since I was around 3 or 4. He hadn’t a paying job in all that time. Granted, my mother is a general practitioner and we are middle class, but my father out my mother through medical school working 90 hours a week at Taco Bell. He was my tennis coach (I am now a scholarshipped D1 player) when he knew nothing about tennis. We grew together. He still is with my younger sisters. I would come home from school when I was 10, from the bus and see my dad, playing video games in the middle of a crowd of folded laundry, “Girls, take your laundry upstairs.” He cooks, he cleans, he fixes things. He tried opening a pizza show a few years back, something he always dreamed of. It was a huge financial investment and he had a huge commitment trying to run it. But he never, ever, ever slacked in his duties as a father. Still supported my mom: up at 5 to cook her breakfast, up til late discussing the day with her. Maybe this is word vomit. I lost sight of this comment a while ago…

52. Mephyle +1 May 4, 2014 8:25 pm

    Coincidentally I read this column at the same time as I was reading my uni alumni magazine, and one of the articles was profiling a musician alumnus who has a successful career with an ad agency pitching music to companies for their ad campaigns. Just as an example. To be good at his job, he has to be on the cutting edge of what’s up and coming, so he has to be familiar with what’s new and happening right now.
    Of course he is a musician and has played in a succession of bands, too. He worked his way up in starting as a bouncer in a Chicago club.

53. Jane +23 May 5, 2014 7:45 am

    I know I’m late to this, but I just have to chime in to applaud the musician who managed to convince his wife he isn’t handy. What does he play, the triangle? Anyone who can change a string can put up a towel rail.

    1. nonvolleyball +13 May 5, 2014 2:01 pm

       haha, that is a very good point (with an added bonus of making me laugh out loud at picturing the tortured creative genius whose muse is the triangle).

54. Gabe +1 May 5, 2014 1:42 pm

    Sweet Buddha McGee, you are all wailing on LW2’s husband like he’s some lousy punk in a go-nowhere band, sucking her life dry. Take a deep breath internet. NOWHERE does she specify what type of musician he is, he could be a composer, or classical musician, with steady opportunities. In fact, letter writer says he works damn hard at his career as well as being a stay-at-home dad. How fucking awesome is that? Does she complain about the chores or cooking? Nope, seems like he probably keeps his end of the bargain there too. So he isn’t good with tools. Hey, some guys aren’t. Thanks for the stereotype though. She considers herself a small ‘c’ creative. That might be overly modest, but maybe she’s a video artist, or graphic designer, which is pretty cool, but generally more on rails than an out and out creative. Nothing to get hung up on. And so she’s used to living in nice places with her parents, and admits she comes from more money. My parents lived in a nicer place than I currently live in. But they were well intp their frikkin 40s by that stage. They didn’t live like kings in their 20s. And the economy ain’t no bed of roses at the moment. YOU NEED TO ADJUST YOUR EXPECTATIONS. Rather than feed her anxieties with sensational assumptions based on minimal information, maybe your advice could’ve been to discuss her issues with her husband and consider a change in perspective. Mallory, you projected your idea of what a loser musician must be like on her husband and made up a whole persona of some slacker doofus who plucks at strings and poses. Please read the letter again, objectively, and write down the information contained within. Then write your response again, with a little less entertaining cray. She has legitimate issues about her situation that deserve a response more substantive than beating on a fictionalised husband.

    1. malloryelis +20 May 5, 2014 2:59 pm

       Oh, how interesting! You really think it matters what type of music he’s working on, rather than the fact that he’s not making substantive contributions to the household? I think that’s rather besides the point. But of course, he might be Verdi-ing the fuck out rather than rocking the fuck out. The issue still remains.

       1. NicoleCliffe +12 May 5, 2014 4:03 pm

          NOT TO MENTION, he obviously doesn’t have “steady opportunities,” because it sounds like he’s barely covering his gas money.

       2. gabe May 6, 2014 2:10 am

          Way to choose one minor point to take issue with, and ignore everything else. He’s taking care of their child. How is that not making a substantive contribution? From reading the letter, the only basis for not making a substantive contribution is that he’s not renovating the house, and not making enough money for LW2 to live at a higher level. He’s stay-at-home dad who also makes money. Not a lot, but if the gender roles were reversed, would you be so unforgiving of a mother at home, who isn’t bringing much money in? LW2’s issues at the moment are problems of expectation vs reality. She’s looking up rental apartments and dreaming of a better place, but openly admits that even when she moves somewhere the buzz never lasts long. If you keep changing your surroundings looking for a happiness that never lasts long, maybe look at changing yourself. But most of all, she should communicate her problems with her husband. It’s a bit rough blaming him for her issues when he doesn’t even know about them. She might be pleasantly surprised at how swiftly issues can be dealt with when both partners are aware of them. Halve the load.

          1. NicoleCliffe +13 May 6, 2014 1:37 pm

             I had a stay at home dad, it was great. My sentiments here are not gendered, apart from the misandry which necessarily permeates my being. The kid is in school during the day, he is not carrying him around in a Moby wrap while he composes concertos. Financially, they are stretched thin, and he doesn’t have any interest in acquiring the ability to be marginally handy. They need to talk about expectations v reality, but, yeah, the “I think the whole SYSTEM” is to blame is not getting any towel racks installed.

             1. gabe May 7, 2014 12:39 am

                There are many ways of being handy around a house besides picking up a hammer, you know. I know you’re riveted to a particular idea of what this husband is or isn’t, maybe due slightly in part to the misandry that permeates your being (which is kind of alarming), but if you reread the letter objectively, ignore Mallory’s wild flights of entertaining fancy, you might see notice that much of LW2’s (entirely legitimate) issues stem from how she perceives herself in the world. I doubt the husband learning how to bevel and plane is going to solve her problem. I assume your last sentence is sarcastic, but as I am not saying the system is the reason her towel racks aren’t installed I’m struggling to see the relevance.

             2. NicoleCliffe +10 May 7, 2014 2:24 am

                I started out, as you’ll see in my answer to the LW, with a more “this is about LW” stance, but found myself convinced by Mallory, as I so often am. Her wisdom is great. Her ways are strange. He needs to bevel.

55. robotneedslove +13 May 5, 2014 4:43 pm

    I thought a lot about LW2 over the weekend. I don’t disagree that her husband needs to pull more weight, yes, absolutely.

    But I also think some of what she is experiencing might be class anxiety, which might not go away if her husband does more DIY or gets a job and pulls in 30k more into their household income a year. I mean, maybe it will, but maybe it won’t. Can he, through his behaviour, change enough to alleviate her anxiety?

    Changing class is an intense experience, I think. There are lots of good reasons to not aspire to the same class as your parents, including not working 60-80 hours a week, or being a rich douche. And there are lots of good reasons why, even if you do aspire to a certain level of income or being part of a certain class, you don’t achieve that goal. Read: the economy. But when, every day, your house, your clothes, your experiences, etc, create a sense of identity that is in conflict with a previous identity and an aspirational identity, you get a lot of dissonance.

    LW2 doesn’t say: “I feel lonely, I wish we were a better team, I wish I felt like we were pulling in the same direction, I wish he would water the modest hanging pots I want to hang in the window”. She says “I feel dirty, and pathetic, and I wish we could own a new house.” She doesn’t say: “I wish I could quit my job to make music videos.” She says: “I wish we were richer.”

    And that’s fine! As Mallory says, I am also petty bourgeois and like towels and open windows. But Mallory also says, here in the comments, that she lives in a studio without windows. I assume she does that because she wants a creative job, because creativity is wealth to her. We all choose, to some extent, what wealth is for us. For some, it’s creativity, and for some, it’s leisure, and for some, it’s new houses. I work at least 60 hours a week in a high stress job that has zero creativity involved, and have barely any hobbies aside from, like, eating. That’s my choice, that I am lucky to be able to make it.

    LW2 is the breadwinner in a family where she doesn’t feel like there is enough bread. Her husband seems to have plenty of “bread” (leisure), but she does not. If their ideas of what wealth is are not the same, then they have some hard work to do. He absolutely must, as part of a team, work WAY harder to help her have the things she needs to be satisfied. He could dig up the yard and plant a lawn. But even if he does all that, she may not be satisfied, because it sounds like him enabling her to take a step up the class ladder is just not going to happen. And that’s not all on him.

    1. robotneedslove +7 May 5, 2014 7:40 pm

       Yeah, I read it again. And I stand by what I wrote, even more so. She says flat-out that she doesn’t want to be creative for a living. This is about something else: His dream is to make music, and he is used to and comfortable with not having a middle-class lifestyle. She thought she was ok with that, so she married him. Her dream, as it turns out, is to be middle class.

    2. gabe +1 May 6, 2014 2:51 am

       This a good response, and perhaps gets closer to the existential nub of the issue. A lot of what is going on with LW2 stems from an inner conflict. I think happiness often means finding satisfaction in what is attainable. And this differs for everybody. Too many people are going bonkers chasing someone else’s dream.

56. LW2 May 28, 2014 3:28 am

    Oh uh, hi, LW2 here. The responses were much richer and varied than I expected, to say the least. I don't think I'll ever look at a towel rack the same way again.

    He is really good with our kid, actually in many ways frets over him more than I do. And during the summer, he does a lot more childcare, obviously. He also does laundry (daily! I don't think I actually remember how to use the washer settings anymore) and yardwork, at least in terms of mowing. He is funny and kind and will give you the shirt off his back. Sadly, he utterly sucks as a music teacher. As my letter said, he busts his ass at what he does. If he was just a bowl-smoking slacker, I'd be loooong gone by now.

    I guess "class anxiety" may be a valid diagnosis for some of what I'm going through. Is there a pill for that? No one in my family pursued any kind of artistic life. I literally **don't know how to do it** and cliches about living in a van by the river aren't really helpful, you know? We actually looked at a real live commune at one point so that we could both quit working for The Man but we couldn't figure out how to make it work. (other things we considered; being traveling caretakers; building a Tiny House and/or Converted Storage Container House; forming our own commune. But we just felt so overwhelmed by the challenges that none of these happened, assuming they would even work).

    The outpouring of love and support, though…you guys. I didn't expect that, it's overwhelming. Thank you. Clearly he and I need to talk. I just have to figure out what I really need/am sad about/what to do next.

57. Kaitlin +2 July 14, 2014 8:53 pm

    I was in exactly this situation. It was only improved by adjusting my expectations and being willing to make some tradeoffs—you simply can’t have it all. Neither can most people. We couldn’t afford a condo, forget a home, in the wonderful urban neighborhood we lived in. Our one bedroom apartment was dingy and depressing and had no room for our son or our things. I never invited anyone over because I was ashamed of how we lived. We finally moved to a cheaper location outside the city, and while there’s a longer commute, we now have more than enough room—a yard even. It’s not the fabulous life I had planned for myself, but its worlds better than how we were living. My husband wasn’t going to suddenly become a highly paid banker or an executive; neither was I. Coming to terms with that and making decisions based on what was most important to me (a nice, safe home for my son) did get me those clean towels and open windows, and I regret that I waited as long as I did to do it.