Please send your etiquette-based questions to [email protected], subject line: “Ms. Proprietypants.” The archives can be found here.
On the subject of apologies, since y’all have been on the subject lately: what’s your policy on apologies for epic bad behaviour like 10 years after the fact? I just had a debate about this with someone who suggested it’s actually selfish when you contact someone you’ve lost touch with for an apology, sincere as it might be, because you’re doing it for you and not them. I have seen this go both ways recently and I’m feeling muddled about the subject. On the one hand, a friend in AA had very positive experiences making amends, which might have been facilitated by people’s familiarity with this being one of the steps. On the other hand, a friend who’s a trans guy had written a genuinely sincere letter apologizing to a woman he’d known as a teenager, (before transition) who he’d bullied in quite a misogynistic manner due to his issues with his own gender. She was very angry with him for reminding her of a sore subject and said he was only doing it for himself, and he naturally felt terrible for upsetting her. Is this a risk worth taking?
Well, now, I don’t know. I am not an ethicist, nor do I particularly care to weigh in as one, and I’m not generally in the business of making blanket statements without specifics (generally! I definitely am in that business occasionally. See below.) But, here goes nothing!!! Wheeeeeeee!
If you are in AA, by all means, go ahead and make amends, when it is appropriate to do so. As you say, this ritual has become enough a part of the culture that people understand it. I don’t know how much relief it brings to those who were feeling wronged for years on end; my guess would be that (you guessed it!) it varies. But note that AA uses the language of “making amends” rather than “apologizing” and clarifies that you may want to give this step a miss if it would cause recipients of such amend-making further pain and suffering. This is a helpful–though non-AA-affiliated–primer on the amends process, if you’re interested.
If you’re going through a time of personal transition, even one that doesn’t come with a widely-familiar cultural script, I get why you would want to do this. And if you decide you want to go forward with it, consider examining carefully the AA stipulations and thinking long and hard about how to proceed. They could provide a useful guide.
Hesitate before you do anything involving anyone who isn’t currently or has never been a meaningful presence in your life. Apologizing in person to your sister-in-law for some long-ago “epic bad behavior,” as you say, while talking honestly about your experiences and the ways in which your perspective has changed over time, all while leaving the door open for her to tell you that she still thinks you’re a complete dope? Could conceivably be really productive and enhance Thanksgiving dinners for decades–literally decades!–to come. Facebook messaging the girl you called a lobster (why a lobster?) on the bus in elementary school? Not really about her. Definitely about you. And not really productive. Will you be repairing a potentially important relationship? No way! She hates you, or has forgotten you exist, or feels a vague antipathy whenever she drives by your parents’ puce-colored house whilst visiting her parents for a few nights accompanied by her handsome spouse and charming children (they are all en route to Hawaii, where she is the keynote speaker at a conference on a fascinating and surprisingly lucrative topic.)
Be warned, too, that in the absence of a real relationship, such “apologies” can make the apologizer look doggedly single-minded and self-absorbed to the point of eccentricity. Or, in fact, mental illness. Something to think about.
***
How do you decline a wedding invite after you have accepted?
In the absence of any context I will simply say that you don’t. Why would you do that? There are like three acceptable good reasons, all of which involve dire circumstances such as death, illness, or criminal allegations.
Here’s the caveat, and I guess actually that this is the unspoken caveat to all answers to any questions submitted to yours truly: if you simply don’t give a shit, go right ahead! Perhaps tell them you feel terrible, but you won’t be able to make it. Be as polite as you can while doing this absurdly rude thing. Offer a reason if you have one, I suppose, but, as I say, unless your reason is that your mother is dying, you don’t actually have a reason (if your mother is dying, just explain that to the intendeds and voice regret… for all the years you weren’t nicer to your mom, for missing out on their party, whatever; they will definitely understand.) And send a gift, duh. Know that these people will probably think less of you henceforth, or at least feel vaguely resentful towards you.
Why is it so rude, you ask? What’s the big deal? Here I will let you in on a secret: even if the people doing the marrying are terribly blasé and whatevs about the whole thing–”Wedding Industrial Complex,” “we’re just doing it for our families,” there are big, flashing air quotes around the “bachelor party,” etc.–their wedding is a big deal to them, and also it’s a pain in the fucking ass to plan. By canceling, you may or may not have cost them money, but that is partially beside the point. The main thing is that you’ve just said that you don’t particularly care about this thing that we’ve all agreed, culturally, is a big deal. You might not think it’s a big deal. They might claim not to think it’s a big deal. But none of us live in a cultural vacuum and trust me, we’ve all decided it’s a big deal. You can argue about whether or not this is for better or for worse, absolutely! Please, by all means, argue thoughtfully away, on your own time/tumblr. But until things are pretty different, know that this is a ritual that matters, and by skipping out when you said you would come, you are effectively saying that these betrotheds and their culturally-weighted party don’t matter much to you. To imply this, with or without words, is rude. In the name of all that is thoughtful, don’t do it.
Tags: advice, apologies, etiquette, ms. proprietypants, weddings
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APOLOGIES!!! this is a topic that I think about way too much.
It’s been on my mind a lot recently because there was a shitty situation between myself, a good friend of mine (and an old friend of my husband’s) and my husband. She spread a lot of gossip about us/me as a result of the shitty situation. Now that situation has passed, and I reached out to her to say “hey, that was a shitty situation, I’m sorry for anything I did that upset you” and she replied “yeah, ok. we need to just keep it in the past and not bring it up again and enjoy any time we get together” (she recently moved a few hours away).
BUT HERE’S THE THING… I don’t feel like I will enjoy the time with her because she did some really shitty things and doesn’t seem to have any self-awareness about it. This isn’t the first time that she’s done something that is shitty and for whatever reason doesn’t see herself as needing to apologize. My solution, thus far, has been to pretend she isn’t there. This doesn’t seem optimal. But maybe it is. It seems clear that she isn’t really a good friend. But she is still friends with my husband. Which could be awkward.
SOCIAL SKILLZ WHY YOU SO HARRRRDDDD
That sounds really frustrating and uncomfortable, sympathies!
The thing about apologies is, they’re not reciprocal. You can say “I am sorry for ____” but you have to do it knowing you might not get a hoped for apology in return, for whatever reason. You apologize because you want to do your part to right the situation, not because you want them to right theirs, if you see what I mean.
What that leaves you with is either accepting your friend is going to do what she’s going to do. Or, you have to ask. You can say, “you know, I want to be able to enjoy _____ but it’s hard because _______. I would like some acknowledgement that _____ hurt because ________.” I expect that if she isn’t already saying “sorry about that” to you, she’d give that approach side-eye, even though it’s not wrong to ask for an apology necessarily.
Or, you can let it go. TBH it sounds like you feel like you’re left in an unbalanced thing where you’re sorry (and therefore you both think you’re wrong) and she’s not sorry and (therefore thinks she’s right). If you can manage to be friends with that sort of set up, things might be okay in the long run. But it doesn’t sounds like she’s really a person you want on the front bench of friendship.
So, you could let it go and seriously reduce your expectations for this relationship.
Yuck. I am sorry. That’s kind of a gross feeling to have, I think.
you are totally right, and I’m normally pretty good about not expecting apologies in return. I happen to be big on apologies, because I know it can be hard to move on without one, and I hope that being free with them myself helps people feel like the air is cleared and they can move on.
But the stuff that went on in this situation was SO egregious, and I’m so gobsmacked that she not only didn’t apologize but essentially closed the door on any further discussion about it, that I’m pretty sure the friendship is a write-off in my book. Which sucks, because she’s one of my husband’s oldest friends, but hey… that’s life, right? I’m not in the game of fishing for apologies – if it doesn’t come naturally, that’s a pretty big sign, you know?
thanks so much for your thoughtful reply! 🙂
Mah pleashah!
Yeah, the “egregious door closing” part is the part that makes it a good bet for a write off, for sure. Blergh.
I used to think if people don’t apologize on their own, it can’t be sincere. But lately, I think your observation that apologies are hard and we don”t do a great job of making it easy for others to apologize or not feel super defensive about doing something apology worthy is SO TRUE. So true. I live in the land of Passive Aggression (aka the Midwest), and I think sometimes life would just be a lot easier if we told each other what’s on our minds.
Most people don’t want to hurt other people’s feelings, and it feels good to make amends, in a lot of ways. (As long as the other person isn’t a jerk.) And helping each other out with opportunities to not do hurtful stuff, and to make amends for having done hurtful stuff is useful.
Maybe? I dunno.
Whatever. My point is, ex-friend sounds like she’s not a very good emotional managing role model/ reliable witness to your life, and that sucks.
I have spoken at length, loudly, and vociferously, to absolutely anyone who will listen, regarding wedding invitations.
1. YOU MUST RSVP IF YOU ARE INVITED. You must. Not RSVPing is not an answer. It is not. I don’t care what you think not replying will do. I don’t care how you do it–return the card, send a note, email, phone call, in-person discussion, smoke signals, passenger pigeon letter, semaphore flag, interpretive dance, fax, does not matter, do not care. But you MUST. RSVP. ALWAYS.
2. If you RSVP yes, it is impossibly rude to back out later, as Ms Proprietypants says, unless you have some unavoidable reason, in which case everyone will understand. At my wedding one couple RSVP’ed very early on, then a few weeks before the wedding my friend had to have emergency surgery and told us how sorry she was and didn’t think she would be able to make it. 150% not a problem! We missed her, but really, unavoidable, and she was gracious enough to let us know.
3. If you RSVP no, and show up anyway, I should be allowed to eat you.
Yes, cosigned!
We had one guy who had RSVPed yes, but then the Thursday before my Sunday wedding, told us that he couldn’t come because of the government shutdown which was happening at the time. Apparently he had yet to make any arrangements whatsoever to travel from DC to Boston, and because of the shutdown, no longer had money to do so. >:-(
https://us.megabus.com/JourneyResults.aspx?origin…
Also! If you RSVP yes and then DO NOT SHOW UP, you should be banned from weddings/general society for all time. (Ok, general exception for absolute last-minute emergencies, etc., but that’s not what I’m talking about.)
We had several people who never showed and gave no warning beforehand. One girl– an old friend who’d gotten back in touch specifically to ask me for an invite– told me afterward, “oh, yeah, my mom let me sleep in that day so then it was too late for me to make the drive! hahahalol” and I just… I can’t.
… wut?
I beg your pardon? :-/
…so your friend was 17 and a junior in high school still living at home? Because that’s the only way that lame-ass explanation even makes sense. And even then, NOT COOL.
My sister’s wedding was not too long ago and our cousin simply…failed to appear. When we asked his dad/our uncle about it he gave some whiffy “personal trouble” answer, and it was only later we learned my cousin had (voluntarily) gone into rehab. While after the fact we both felt super OK with this being an excuse, I also think someone should have told her beforehand that he wouldn’t show up? Just so she wasn’t spending like, half the cocktail hour looking for him. It was sticky.
Yeah… also, if you’re close enough to the bride/host/whatever that they’re legitimately worried about you if you don’t show up, that’s EXTRA rude.
So many people showed up who had not RSVP’d. SO MANY.
It’s a good thing it was a buffet. If we’d had a sit-down meal I wouldn’t have been able to feed about… 7 people? I think people thought it was OK because we’re relaxed people and they were ‘only turning up to the party bit’. But still, there had been a large financial outlay!
We had the opposite–a buffet with tons of leftover food because people who had RSVP’ed didn’t show up. And at the time I was way too overwhelmed to consider it, thinking about it now makes me feel sad because my event wasn’t important enough to these people to even grant us the courtesy of calling to say they couldn’t make it. It hurt.
Yeah, we had about 15 people (including a family of 5) not show! Several of them had sent emails on the FRIDAY before the Saturday wedding (when I was not checking email) and several that we never heard any sort of excuse from. I really do feel negatively toward those people, even though part of me feels like it is petty to do so. But seriously. It’s some bullshit.
Oh, we had TONS of people just never bother to RSVP at all. Including some of my close relatives. What’s worse is that I had ACTUAL FRIENDS whom I had to CHASE DOWN and beg them to let me know whether or not they were attending my wedding and they still never bothered to do so. That is rude as hell and I will not lie to them if they ask me why I don’t reach out to them any more.
Sometimes the best thing for a friendship is telling the friend being an asshole, “hey, you’re an asshole.”
I feel stung when people can’t even be bothered to decline an email invitation to go running. I think I would probably have an utter collapse if folks couldn’t be bothered to say they couldn’t come to my wedding.
WORD.
Seriously. SERIOUSLY. Having lost the art of RSVPing is just appalling. My inner Miss Manners gets fumey about it. It’s so rude. I pretty much have quit throwing parties because people don’t RSVP or don’t come at all without saying or show up way late to a dinner or… or… It’s lucky my introversion gland is over producing right now, since that morass would make my “noone likes me” anxiety kick into overdrive.
RSVPing and then not coming to a wedding is 10th circle of hell rude.
Yeah, a couple of people RSVP’d yes and never showed, and I was really hurt, and if I’m honest my relationship with them has never been the same.
Yes, of course, bring who you like, but if you can’t find room to sit down at dinner you *must* give way to the others, because they’ve been properly invited. I’m quite ruthless. I shall make you.
– Margery Allingham, The Estate of the Beckoning Lady (one of the best books ever)
I love that faxing comes after interpretive dance in the queue of ludicrous ways to provide communication. Pffft. Faxing.
@ my cousins wedding, she specifically said “no children” and even provided a fun/play room in a suite in the hotel w one of her schoolteacher friends as babysitter (she’s good w large groups of kids! knows games!) so parents could literally BRING THEIR CHILDREN and then take them to fun-kid-utopia during wedding ceremony.
No joke, someone brought their 6 children to the reception; they all had dinner service; the seating chart was lit ablaze with dragon fire; an entire fam thought it had been slighted when there were no seats at the table; YOU ARE NOW FORBIDDEN FROM SOCIETY.
THAT LAST PARAGRAPH. Your poetic rage sustains us all.
Being in this situation recently, other than an emergency, another acceptable reason not to be able to go is cost. A very close friend of mine planned a destination wedding in a really remote location. At first I thought I could swing it, but then as my excel spreadsheet delineating the expenses began to total ever higher and I realized that I would be out of vacation days by then (requiring me to take unpaid time off), I finally had to send regrets (still 4 months before the wedding). I told him personally though, and offered to throw a party for them when they return.
Yes, I think that is also totally fine. I think if you plan a destination wedding, I think you need to keep in mind that stuff like that is probably going to happen and be understanding of that.
I received a wedding invitation from an old high school teammate. We were cordial back in the day but not friends. It was sent to my parent’s house and was in a different city in my home state; I was in grad school in another part of the country.
So of course my parents decide I should go and RSVPed for me. Nothing more galling than pinching pennies to afford an event you don’t want to attend. Well, getting taken to court would be the same, I guess.
And if your invitation does not say “plus 1” on it, it is acceptable to ask whether it was meant to include a plus 1, but it is NOT acceptable to show up at the wedding with a plus 1 who was never mentioned to anyone.
it’s actually selfish when you contact someone you’ve lost touch with for an apology, sincere as it might be, because you’re doing it for you and not them.
man I hate this line of argument and that it is so popular, because I feel like it is designed to make everybody feel like Ayn Rand when they correctly take issue with it. Because sure, you do an ethical thing selfishly, because it flatters your self-conception to see yourself doing a right action, and it gives you some pleasure, however removed, to add to the meager pile of evidence you may have amassed that you are a good person. What does that have to do with whether you should do it? Nothing! What you do is, make yourself into a person who will feel good if the person you wronged feels better, and THEN do the apology –or don’t, depending — ‘for yourself.’ Then it all works out.
It’s not a dire warning to reassess your motives if apologizing makes you feel better, it’s a sign that society has conditioned you into having human instincts. I personally feel terrible when I apologize, as though I had lost a lot of blood in a long battle, but that is only because I am basically a mountain bear in a human suit.
and if somebody apologized to me for something awful they’d done twenty years ago, I probably wouldn’t accept it or tell them they’d done a good thing, but I would feel really good and triumphant that they felt bad.
“I personally feel terrible when I apologize, as though I had lost a lot of blood in a long battle, but that is only because I am basically a mountain bear in a human suit. ”
Just so you know, if I’m ever single again, this is going on my OKCupid profile. With attribution!
also make your profile picture a bear so they know you aren’t joking around
I agree, no one has totally “pure” or “unselfish” motives in doing anything, what even are “pure” motives and why should we care about having them. That being said, there is something to the idea that it’s good to think about how the other person may be affected by your quest for closure or absolution or whatever. Not that that should necessarily be the most important thing, but in that sense I think the…sentiment? of the “selfish apology” argument is not totally off.
I agree that doing an ethical thing to feel better is not inherently wrong, because you’re still doing an ethical thing.
But I think the reason that this line of argument exists–although as “a line of agrument” I’ve really only seen it at Captain Awkward’s blog (and agreed wholeheartedly)–is that apologizing is not de facto an ethical thing to do. Sometimes people apologize because they feel like they are supposed to, but it would have been better to let it lie. Sometimes people apologize because they actively wish to re-open a wound, either because they want to keep examining it and want an audience, or because they prefer being abject to being ignored. Sometimes, intentionally or not, a person delivers a fauxpology which puts some kind of onus on the apologizee,* which of course makes things worse. It would be difficult to make a blanket rule for it, but a moment of reflection can’t hurt.
*For some reason I keep thinking of that OitNB scene where [redacted] and [redacted] visit Piper at Litchfield and are all, “We want your blessing!” Get out of here with that.
The point is you’re not doing an ethical thing dragging people who are not responsible for you (and presumably don’t much like you) into your personal catharsis at a time of your choosing, long after it would have done them much good; you are at best providing other people with an opportunity to do an absolutely saintly thing in tolerating you further. If my last interaction with you was a shitty experience years back that I’ve mostly forgotten about, and I am not forced to interact with you on a recurring basis in the future, the last thing I want is to suddenly out of the blue have to deal with you again and get drafted into playing your goddamn therapist while you go over the times we had, remember when I got a cold and spit in your food, oh you were so mad, whew glad I got that off my chest let’s be friends. Rest assured: I am doing quite fine without you, look forward to continuing to do so, and all else being equal I’d generally rather pass on anything that makes you feel better.
If you did something so awful to someone that it merits an apology years down the road, and then subsequently went on to live cheek-by-jowl with that person for years (yeeeeears) with them silently simmering about it and you cheerfully feeling no need to make amends all the while until suddenly you decide to feel Bad about it, you’re kinda a piece of shit no matter what you do an actual decade down the road; there is no ‘ethical’ in this scenario and clearly independently assessing appropriate social graces is sorta a lost cause on your part. Buy them a new car, a nice one, or maybe a fantastic once-in-a-lifetime vacation that you are not coming along on.
There are LOTS of reasons to RSVP yes and later find out that you can’t attend a function.
Just let the couple know as soon as you find out you can’t attend in a very polite manner but still send a gift. As long as you aren’t a member of the wedding party and there are more than 25 people being invited, you really won’t be missed.
*rides in on a white charger* COMPLETELY DISAGREEEEEEEE *rides away*
Yes, you will be missed. Seating plan carefully arranged. Food purchased and caterer engaged. Gift bags for children made up.
I had enough people to talk to that I didn’t NEED them to be there. But to send back RSVP cards and then not show (with one day notice, or no notice, that you won’t be coming) is incredibly rude.
but then, can’t they apologize to you 10 years after the fact by showing up at your door on your wedding anniversary? No?
Yeah, no. My wedding was around 85 people, so small, but bigger than 25. I definitely noticed people who had RSVP-ed yes but didn’t show up. Whether we found out they had good reasons later or not, it still stung. People rely on those RSVP numbers when making the wedding plans, and it’s rude to act like that’s not the case.
I think it’s more the person who says ‘yes’, but then backs out and tells the couple with a reasonable amount of time before the wedding, that is when it is less of a big deal and the wouldn’t be specifically missed, no?
For me, anything before we had to have the final numbers to all our vendors was fine (which is usually 2-3 weeks before). I know some things aren’t avoidable, but expecting to see Mr. X or Ms. Y there and them not showing is jarring.
I legitimately don’t understand the second question. If something really important comes up unexpectedly and there’s no way you can make it, then just tell the couple ASAP and they will understand. They might be a little sad or upset, but (as someone who was recently in this very position) it’s not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things they are dealing with right now. If OTOH you accepted and then just decided you can’t be bothered after all, tough titty. Suck it up and go.
“tough titty” is maybe one of my favorite expressions, but I had forgotten about it until just now. Thank you so, so much.
I learned the bowdlerized version originally, “tough tiddlywinks!” which I appreciate because it’s so much fun to say in a gruff voice.
I think the sticking point is defining “really important.” I think “I just got hit by a car and am in a body cast” is pretty obvious, but folks might debate whether “something came up at work” counts.
Unless it was “and the thing was an invasion and you’re a combat communications commander, or a heart transplant and all the other heart surgeons were having heart surgery done on them.” I don’t think that happens very often except in episodes of Grey’s Anatomy, though.
It’s still *rude* but it’s something you can sincerely apologize and be forgiven for having to do. And the intendeds will probably understand sometimes needs trump courtesy.
Exactly! “I’m sorry, but I couldn’t reschedule my on-call night and there was a massive accident and the hospital paged me” (or similar medical emergency) is acceptable (veterinarians are included in that exemption too). “I got behind on my grading and decided to stay home” would guarantee that friend a place on my permanent shit list.
Or I’d just passive-aggressively drop them forever. Either or.
There is the hoary tale of investment banking interviews where recent grads are asked, “a deal comes up on Friday and you’re attending a wedding that weekend. Do you skip the wedding?” There’s only one correct answer, and I would be more concerned but i-bankers are not people so they don’t count.
The thing about apologies is that you don’t get to decide if the person you are apologising to accepts it or not. It is important to think about what you want out of the apology. Accept you may not get forgiveness. Accept you may not get a good reaction at all.
A boy who bullied me very badly (with sexual harassment in there) at school apologised a few years ago. It was sincere and genuine, and I appreciated the effort, but I still don’t want to speak to this person ever again or have them in my life, and as the hurt person I get to make that choice. In fact, even with the apology, if I saw them in person again I might want to tear them to shreds.
Yes — accept that you don’t get to control their reaction, and if you don’t get forgiveness or acceptance or whatever it is you’re hoping for, for God’s sake don’t keep pushing for it. (I have also been apologized to by a boy who harassed me in high school; I did not respond with the “aw, well, bygones and all, you are forgiven!” attitude that he was apparently looking for, and he FOLLOWED ME as I walked away from him, repeating over and over that he apologized and really he understood now how terrible that behavior was and he really hoped I could forgive him. Since the behavior he was “apologizing” for was, um, following me from place to place demanding my attention, you can see where this did not strike me as a sincere expression of remorse.)
WOW, NO THANK YOU, DUDE.
Out of curiosity, how did you handle this apology? I have a feeling that an estranged friend may be reaching out to me somewhat soon, and I really just never want to talk to her again because of what happened between us. Did you say something like “Thank you for the apology” and then just move on?
I once had an ex-friend do that and I basically went “That’s nice. I still never want to speak to you again. Have a nice life.” And I have blissfully ignored her existence ever since.
I’ve used “thank you for the apology” before. It basically politely says “I acknowledge that you did this thing” without saying the issue is forgiven or forgotten.
it took me two days to reply. When I did, I said ‘Thanks for the apology. I appreciate both the effort and the intent. However, as what you did hurt me a great deal, and I am still dealing with that, I have no interest in any future conversation. Thank you’ and then blocked them on every bit of social media I could find.
I recently had this happen! Someone who was a manipulative asshole to me and my friends is returning to my town and wanted to “apologise” and reconnect. I responded that his behaviour at the time was inexcusable, that I didn’t trust him or believe he’d changed, and that I didn’t want to interact with him anymore. It was a good email.
Whole lotta folks seem to consider apologizing a way to unilaterally assert control over your relationship, once you’ve sucessfully gotten rid of them once. I’ve got an ex-friend, who became ex- when he threatened to kill me and then skipped town with a shitload of “borrowed” money, who will periodically pop up and try to “apologize” in such a way that makes clear that this apology is meant to be a slate-clearing in lieu of anything I could actually want from him, such as:
1. my goddamn money
2. to drink wine from his skull
Lord, how pouty he gets when his apologies are not accepted gratefully.
o_O
That’s what I got…
About 5 years ago I was a seriously shitty friend to someone. I was in a bad place in my life (marriage was deteriorating, although I was in denial at the time) and when she took the time to come see me and ask, “Hey, are we cool?” I told her yes, even though I was also being a dick.
It stuck in my craw for years, because I know it hurt her, and we were Facebook friends still, and it was kind of an elephant in the room. I finally messaged her a few weeks ago and said in effect, “Look, I owe you an apology. I was a dick, I know I was a dick, and you did nothing wrong.” I kept it short and to the point, and then fretted for a while about if I was doing this to make me feel better or because it would make her feel better. (Answer: both.) She responded by basically saying, “Hey, thanks for this, it means a lot. I figured I was too needy a friend and you couldn’t deal with it. Bygones.” I think part of me was sort of expecting her to be way happier than I’d apologized, but I realized that it was YEARS ago, and that was my own ego talking.
In summary, I’m glad I apologized because I do think it was nice for her to hear that it wasn’t her failing, but it was clearly a bigger thing in my head than hers, so I can really easily see both sides of the “That apology is for YOU, selfish beast!” argument.
One of my bridesmaids’ +1 decided a week before my wedding that he didn’t feel like making the trip. She didn’t think it was important to let me know until two days before. Luckily I was able to give his already-paid-for $200 meal to one of the band members, but I am apparently still a little annoyed at my friend. My wedding was the best party I ever went to, but I would never want to go through the planning of it again. Weddings, man.
Before I delve into the article, please be aware that Kanye has adopted the phrase “raising the tone” to refer to the intent of Kim Kardashians Instagram account. Im just going to leave this information here.
though I do think it’s fine not to go to weddings for various other reasons, as long as you’re clear about it early on. I also am going to 8 weddings this summer, and I’m sure their love is a beautiful thing, and sure I’ll buy them some plates, but I want to spend some of my summer weekends drunk in an inner tube, not necessarily doing the chicken dance and explaining that eshakti is where fat girls go to buy pretty clothes on the internet is to women from high school that grew up to be financial analysts, or whatever the fuck.
“explaining that eshakti is where fat girls go to buy pretty clothes on the internet”
hi, we live the same life.
Three people retracted their yeses post-RSVPing. Here are their reasons in order of legitimacy:
1. Death.
2. Impending divorce from other attendee.
3. Work.
And then there were three people who RSVPed yes, never updated their response, and then no-showed. Here are their reasons, in order of legitimacy:
1. Plus one who may not have realized someone accepted on their behalf.
2. A cold
3. Generally a terrible person.
To be clear, the guest who was not able to attend due to death was, in fact, the one who died.
That is an extremely legitimate excuse.
And extremely considerate of them to write
I feel like financial reasons should be there. Like, something happened and you now no longer have the money to go.
The reasons I listed are the real life reasons of people who weren’t able to attend my wedding despite RSVPing yes. There were people who RSVPed no because they couldn’t afford to fly out, and that was fine. Then there were people who attended, but didn’t give a present (presumably because they couldn’t afford to), and that was fine, too. As far as I know, no one experienced a drastic change in their financial situation in the four weeks between RSVPing and the wedding itself. But yeah, I would’ve been understanding of that.
I RSVP’d no to a wedding in April on the other side of the continent, and then was coincidentally sent to a nearby city for work with only a week’s notice. I emailed the bride and her parents to say that while I was sure it was too late to change my RSVP I would love to see them if they had time. They wrote back to say not to be silly and people always back out so I should just come anyway. By which I mean to say, things happen and you do the best you can to let everyone know and leave them wiggle room if they can’t adjust and one way or another it’ll probably be fine.
I had three yes RSVPers who never showed up. Their excuses, which I found out only after the fact, were:
1) Flareup of chronic illness
2) Threw out back while changing a diaper
I was not super miffed, as both were sort of last-minute things that just happened, but at the same time I remember there was a lot of asking around “where are they” type stuff, considering it was a very small event.
As for the “apologizing is selfish” thing I think it really honestly depends more on the situation that demands the apology than anything else. Saying you’re sorry for a thing you did that was wrong is a good thing to do, if you are genuinely sorry, but I think in some situations where the person has made it clear they never want to see/hear from you again it is selfish to overrule that wish of no contact to make yourself feel better that you got the apology said and done. And like Silver Deer said above, you can apologize, but the reaction you get is not up to you.
I’m interested in learning how one throws out one’s back whilst diaper-changing. Was the person changing their own or someone else’s diaper? So many questions.
As someone who throws out her back way too frequently doing things like shaving her legs in the shower or sitting down on the bus, I can tell you that there’s usually one specific (un)sweet spot of bending over that can suddenly go “ka-poinnnnnng!” for no apparent reason and then you can’t stand up straight for a week.
It was her baby’s diaper! Apparently she was trying to change him in the backseat of her car, so I can understand weird positions probably led to a tweak in her muscles.
I think a happy medium re: the apology issue could be to do it in a way that doesn’t force the apology on the recipient. I’m thinking email or snail mail. That way, when they see they have a letter/email from you, they can delete it/throw it away, read it and never respond, or reach out and respond if they so desire. This is, of course, barring any situation where even contacting the person via email or snail mail would cause harm.
The week before our wedding, I ran into one of our non-RSVPers and sweetly asked if he could make it to the wedding. He answered, and I quote, “Oh, yeah, we might swing by.”
Did you kill him and eat him?
I don’t remember my real-time reaction, though I suspect it was to laugh and laugh and laugh until he started shifting uncomfortably on his feet and then laugh still more at WHAT MUST OBVIOUSLY BE A JOKE RIGHT BUDDY because ahahahahahaha no one would really say that to someone who was just trying to get a head count for the biggest, most emotionally taxing party she’s ever likely to throw so YOU ARE LITERALLY KIDDING ME RIGHT?
>:-(
Ohhhhh my Goooooooooooooooooooood. I had some annoying things happen with RSVPs and I was pretty ‘whatevs’ about most of it, but that might have made me snap!
Ughhhhhhhh unless it is officially the lowest of low-key weddings in the history of the universe (even so…), you do NOT just “maybe swing by” a wedding!! :-O
And then you set him on fire and crossed his name off the seating chart, right?
step 9 amends, my experience thereof:
1. The amends you don’t make because it’s actually completely unthinkable that you and the wronged person should have to share a solar system, let alone a room/ city/ landmass for the period of time necessary for them to have to listen to you making excuse garbage excuses for your garbage actions. You’d become an astronaut and fly to Betelgeuse if that would make up for your garbage actions, but a) it wouldn’t, you monster, and b) you can’t afford astronaut school because you spent all your money on LIICKER ‘N’ DRUURRGS. You write a letter you will never send to the wronged person, which feels really pathetic, and flinch with shame when you think about your behaviour; this will, as your recovery progresses, happen on a sometimes weekly, sometimes monthly, sometimes hourly basis. I will keep happening. All of this sucks, but is entirely as it should be, and a weekly/ monthly/ hourly reminder to be Less Garbage.
2. You tell the person you need to make amends for a thing that happened 8 years ago because you’re in the 12s and if you don’t you will RELAPSE AND DIE. They have no memory of the thing and no idea who you are (because you are literally 98% less significant in peoples’ lives than you have ever imagined, but you’ll be waaaay past step 9 before you work that shit out). Seriously, until you made amends they thought your name was Amber. I know, right? Do you even look like an Amber?
3. You ask the person to have coffee with you because you need to make an amends because you’re in the 12’s and if you don’t you’ll RELAPSE AND DIE. They will not let you pay for their coffee. You make amends for the thing, feeling excruciatingly embarrassed. They remember the thing, and are excruciatingly embarrassed, but accept your apology with astonishing grace. It is terrible, and it’s over, and you both still have SO MUCH coffee left to drink. On leaving the coffee shop they say ‘so, anyway, it’s great to see you looking so… not soaked in your own urine. Keep it up!’. You add them on Facebook. They add you on Facebook. The two of you will never make contact again.
4. You meet the person in your favourite sober hanging- out venue on your weekly hanging- out date. You say to them ‘so you know I’m not drinking/ drugging/ smanging strangers like a loon and I’m in the 12s and just let me make amends to you even though neither of us want me to have to go through this but RELAPSE AND DIE etc etc. You apologise for the terrible thing. They are like, ‘Okay… thankyou? LOL. I don’t even remember that so we must have been HAMMERED. If it was me I would have apologised for (completely different much more terrible thing) but whatever… you don’t remember that? DUDE. FUCKING LOL. Duuuude. Seriously? You don’t remember that? You have got to be fucking shitting me. Jesus…. Okay. I need another coffee and you’re paying FOREVER you wretch’.
And everybody hugs and sobriety is awesome except when it’s fucking gruesome and painful because EVERYTHING HURTS and FUCK THIS and ENOUGH OF THE HURTING I AM TIRED OF HUMAN-ING; IT MAKES MY BRAIN SORE WHERE ARE THE PAINKILLERS. But no really it’s awesome, don’t drink, keep coming back, call your sponsor, it works if you work it so work it you merkin!
Can I pitch my article about Instructive step 9’s in TV and literature? I need an excuse to binge- watch Blossom because… I dunno, AnTHONY, research, something.
Oh my god, Anthony. ANTHONY.
Well I’d read it
ENOUGH OF THE HURTING I AM TIRED OF HUMAN-ING; IT MAKES MY BRAIN SORE WHERE ARE THE PAINKILLERS.
Bingo.
<3 <3 <3
I have to say as someone who had/planned/paid for a largish wedding that much of the answer to #2 is going to depend primarily on (a) how close you are to the couple, obviously, and, less obviously to those who haven’t planned a wedding before (b) how far you are from the wedding itself. If you aren’t in the bride(s)/groom(s) inner ciricle of very close friends and family, then while they will obviously be sad to have you not be there, it will probably not be that big a sadness for them, as there will be maybe 100+ other people they love who will also be there. Re: point (b), mercenary as this sounds, there are certain costs and planning decisions that you really get caught up in and if someone pulls out at the very last minute it can be very irritating/expenses to grapple with the changes. Basically, the closer you are to the couple and closer you are to the wedding date, the better your excuse ought to be.
I would agree. If you RSVP yes, and something comes up and it is still before the RSVP date or at least a few months before the actual wedding it’s not that big of a deal. The closer it gets, the more annoying it is for sure, but unless it was my inner circle of friends and family I didn’t really have strong feelings either way as long as they let me know. We had a few no-shows, and a few last minute people who ended up coming, so for us it kind of balanced out.
We got married about a month ago and I actually just got a card in the mail from someone who apparently was a no-show, but I actually really thought I remembered talking to her at the wedding.I really found my wedding to be a huge blur and it was a struggle to find the time to make sure to talk to everyone who came so for me I hardly noticed the no-shows.
Looking for useless advice because I already did the thing but want to not feel like a jerk.
What are the feelings on changing your RSVP the other way?
An old friend is getting married in a month. He lives a ways away and I initially RSVPed no. Things just changed and not only can I get to the city for free, if I go I will also have chance to see relatives who live on the other end of the country. So, awesome! I will totally take this trip! What I’m torn about, but did anyways, is if it’s totally rude to ask to change my mind and come to the wedding! Which is in almost exactly a month!
My approach was to send an email saying ‘hey, things changed and I would love to come. But if that is ridiculous at this point and there are no chairs or plates for me, then absolutely no hard feelings.’ Which I feel is reasonable, but I know nothing about weddings.
I think that if you worded it in a way where it was clear that you initially turned it down because you didn’t think you could afford to make the trip out but you’ve now found you have the ability and were wondering if the offer was still on the table, it would be totally fine. I think personally I would have been thrilled to have a no turn into a yes, especially if the no had only been a no to begin with because of financial/logistical reasoning.
I had someone do this to me and I though it was fine, but it was still a fair bit of time before the wedding. She had booked a trip to China, and then ended up post-poning it due to other reasons and asked to change. A month might be getting kind of close though. I don’t know. It wouldn’t have been an issue for me, but I was a procrastinator and we had a lovely venue that didn’t need numbers until 2 days before the wedding which isn’t exactly how all venues roll.
If you make it plain you won’t be hurt if they say no, I think it’s fine. And if I like you enough to invite you to my wedding and you like me enough to send that awkward email, it’s probably going to make me really happy you asked.
I once got an apology from someone who had been subtly awful to me in college. I really appreciated it, because it acknowledged that she had done something shitty and that I didn’t deserve it. It really changed how I felt about that time (ie less confused). But I also didn’t respond, I don’t think, because I didn’t care anymore to be friends with her.
And hooooly shit I wonder now if she was making amends. That would make a lot of sense.
As a pregnant introverty person in my last trimester, I love you.
yo
Sometimes the best thing for a friendship is telling the friend being an asshole, "hey, you're an asshole."
Statistically likely that she was.
Exactly! "I'm sorry, but I couldn't reschedule my on-call night and there was a massive accident and the hospital paged me" (or similar medical emergency) is acceptable (veterinarians are included in that exemption too). "I got behind on my grading and decided to stay home" would guarantee that friend a place on my permanent shit list.
Or I'd just passive-aggressively drop them forever. Either or.
I received a wedding invitation from an old high school teammate. We were cordial back in the day but not friends. It was sent to my parent's house and was in a different city in my home state; I was in grad school in another part of the country.
So of course my parents decide I should go and RSVPed for me. Nothing more galling than pinching pennies to afford an event you don't want to attend. Well, getting taken to court would be the same, I guess.
There is the hoary tale of investment banking interviews where recent grads are asked, "a deal comes up on Friday and you're attending a wedding that weekend. Do you skip the wedding?" There's only one correct answer, and I would be more concerned but i-bankers are not people so they don't count.
I learned the bowdlerized version originally, "tough tiddlywinks!" which I appreciate because it's so much fun to say in a gruff voice.
That’s brilliant differentiation matrix on amends: Enduring relationship? Suck it up and do it. Not in your life and never likely to be again? Tread carefully, probably falls under “except when to do so would cause harm.” And I love what YeahJustAlice had to say.
The two best things I learned about amends from the 12s are:
#1 – Words are apologies, actions are amends.
Amends involve the key phrase, “and what do you need me to do to make this different.” Then whatever they tell you to do, do it. If it’s “Leave me alone,” then leave them alone. Because boundaries. If it’s, “Yeah actually, I need your help moving next month,” show up and move their sofa. If its, “Awww that’s sweet, just keep staying sober and not barfing on my carpet,” then do the actions needed to embed and maintain sobriety. Because that person actually gives a flip about you. Addicts and co-addicts are all about words and intentions, but generally terrible persons when it comes to ‘putting my ass where my mouth is.’ Your loved ones know this, believe me. The way you become not that person is to be a different person. Apologies are words, amends are actions. If you don’t walk away with marching orders of some kind, you’re doing it wrong.
So use that, amends hearers of the world! If your 12stepper doesn’t ask, tell them, “yeah yeah thats great, but you know what I need from you? I need you to do This Thing.” As long as what you’re expressing is reasonable, honest, not manipulative, and legal, they get to do it. Yayyyy!
#2 Ask the question, “and now what have I left out or overlooked.” Because we are solipsistic bastards incapable of seeing and assessing clearly our effect on others. Part of that is the subjective nature of the human condition, part if that is the twisting of addiction. Whatever it is you think you’re making amends for, the recipient almost definitely has a different list. This isn’t about you, it’s about them, so you ask the question and you hear them out. This is their turn to vent a bit and agree yeah, you were pretty terrible sometimes and here’s how and why. Face it and hear it. Accept their feelings about what happened, and ask, “what can I do to make this different.”
Amends hearers, likewise if your 12stepper doesn’t ask, tell them anyway. This may be the only chance you get. Use your power for good.
In general, recipients almost never reject an amends, because if it’s done right, it recalibrates the power dynamic and returns some justice to them. Fearing rejection for an amends is self involved catastrophizing, typically. Man up, or put your big girl panties on, and change yourselves and your relationships with actions, not words.
I’m not as active in the 12s as I used to be, but these two points are enduring ethical lessons for me I’ll take away and use for the rest of my life.